I found this neat article on GMOs
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08-07-2014, 09:01 PM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
Where I live, the economy relies heavily on organic food production, among other things.

We recently banned GMO crops in the county. They cross pollinate organically grown crops. These are ruined because they now show as containing internal pesticides.

Also, the area grows heirloom crops for their very superior flavor and these are used in top restaurants. They cannot be transported far or picked by machines because they are bred for flavor and not thickness of skin or firmness.

GMO crops taste like crap, and the younger generations have no idea that they actually never tasted real veggies, which are sweet and flavorful and delicious. The hybrids grown for supermarket have lost all flavor, and even if they were freshly ripe when eaten (which they are not) there is no comparison with real food anymore. The fricking tomatoes in the supermarket taste like cardboard.

I voted against GMO because I think at the very least as a niche market we have the right to eat healthy, good tasting food. GMO will wipe out the heirlooms and the organics.

There is no co-existence. It's an either/or. There is no shielding against cross pollination.

Of course the ban will be over ruled by federal legislation and the heirlooms will be destroyed anyway.

One of the many reasons I am glad I am old and don't have to deal with our brave, new, hopelessly overpopulated world. I really like a nice fresh tomato, sun warmed, directly from the bush. I love to break an ear of corn from the stalk and put it straight on the grill. The sweetness can't be beat, and it still actually tastes like corn unlike the hybrids sold in the store. And so on. I would miss these things terribly. Fresh food is one of the great pleasures in my life. I understand that the majority of the population already never tasted real, sun ripened veggies that were selected for superior flavor. It makes me sad.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-07-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(08-07-2014 09:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  Where I live, the economy relies heavily on organic food production, among other things.

We recently banned GMO crops in the county. They cross pollinate organically grown crops. These are ruined because they now show as containing internal pesticides.

Also, the area grows heirloom crops for their very superior flavor and these are used in top restaurants. They cannot be transported far or picked by machines because they are bred for flavor and not thickness of skin or firmness.

GMO crops taste like crap, and the younger generations have no idea that they actually never tasted real veggies, which are sweet and flavorful and delicious. The hybrids grown for supermarket have lost all flavor, and even if they were freshly ripe when eaten (which they are not) there is no comparison with real food anymore. The fricking tomatoes in the supermarket taste like cardboard.

I voted against GMO because I think at the very least as a niche market we have the right to eat healthy, good tasting food. GMO will wipe out the heirlooms and the organics.

There is no co-existence. It's an either/or. There is no shielding against cross pollination.

Of course the ban will be over ruled by federal legislation and the heirlooms will be destroyed anyway.

One of the many reasons I am glad I am old and don't have to deal with our brave, new, hopelessly overpopulated world. I really like a nice fresh tomato, sun warmed, directly from the bush. I love to break an ear of corn from the stalk and put it straight on the grill. The sweetness can't be beat, and it still actually tastes like corn unlike the hybrids sold in the store. And so on. I would miss these things terribly. Fresh food is one of the great pleasures in my life. I understand that the majority of the population already never tasted real, sun ripened veggies that were selected for superior flavor. It makes me sad.

What country do you live in?

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09-07-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(08-07-2014 09:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  Where I live, the economy relies heavily on organic food production, among other things.

We recently banned GMO crops in the county. They cross pollinate organically grown crops. These are ruined because they now show as containing internal pesticides.

Also, the area grows heirloom crops for their very superior flavor and these are used in top restaurants. They cannot be transported far or picked by machines because they are bred for flavor and not thickness of skin or firmness.

GMO crops taste like crap, and the younger generations have no idea that they actually never tasted real veggies, which are sweet and flavorful and delicious. The hybrids grown for supermarket have lost all flavor, and even if they were freshly ripe when eaten (which they are not) there is no comparison with real food anymore. The fricking tomatoes in the supermarket taste like cardboard.

I voted against GMO because I think at the very least as a niche market we have the right to eat healthy, good tasting food. GMO will wipe out the heirlooms and the organics.

There is no co-existence. It's an either/or. There is no shielding against cross pollination.

Of course the ban will be over ruled by federal legislation and the heirlooms will be destroyed anyway.

One of the many reasons I am glad I am old and don't have to deal with our brave, new, hopelessly overpopulated world. I really like a nice fresh tomato, sun warmed, directly from the bush. I love to break an ear of corn from the stalk and put it straight on the grill. The sweetness can't be beat, and it still actually tastes like corn unlike the hybrids sold in the store. And so on. I would miss these things terribly. Fresh food is one of the great pleasures in my life. I understand that the majority of the population already never tasted real, sun ripened veggies that were selected for superior flavor. It makes me sad.

I think you are conflating GMO varieties with the varieties that have been developed by traditional means by agribusinesses. Flavorless veggies long pre-date GMO technology.

Now, if one starts with a flavorless tomato and then applies gene splicing to it, you get what you get - a flavorless GMO variety.

But imagine starting with an heirloom tomato and adding disease resistance to it. Drooling

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09-07-2014, 06:34 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
It's tomorrow, and I'm back. It doesn't look like anything is going to get accomplished in this thread, so it would probably be best if I just continue on. Everything is going in circles like a dog chasing it's own tail and I truly don't have the time or energy for drama like this, especially with a group of people I don't even know in real life (that I, consequently, don't owe anything.)

I seriously don't know what I'm expected to do here--browse through every single file and powerpoint on my laptop so I can copy & paste the links to every single study I've ever had to cite for an assignment? (I'm not an immature teenager that is going to go through that much trouble just to feel like I "won" an internet argument. There are literally a hundred other things that would be a better use of my time.) Or should we all just play the game of back-and-forth/tit-for-tat that Zeke already tried to start (and I predicted?) Experience tells me that this conversation can't go anywhere, and you guys might want to ask yourselves why you are even pushing the issue so hard. Confused I'm not trying to get creationism into our science classes, or make vaccination a "family choice." We are just a random collection of people on a forum who happen to be discussing a hot button issue. You guys are up in arms as though "defeating" me is going to somehow remove all non-skeptics from the face of the Earth. It's weird, creepy, and reminds me of behavior Chippy would find acceptable. (For crying out loud--I posted a .gov link to the laws we were talking about, and one of you actually claimed that Monsanto never properly suing anyone was somehow indicative that they never would! They've settled out of court with plenty of companies, and if you actually read the damn thing you will see that they easily could.) Again, you're all spouting out red herrings that you probably heard from someone else. You're saying things that look good on the surface, but if you really stop to consider them, they have no real substance.

To the other people in the thread that are genuinely curious and were actually interested in discussing the issue: It's one of those topics that you'll have to just find someone locally to chat up. People on the internet are still in that phase where every convo about this is going to be reduced to a pissing contest. I know because it's happened to me literally dozens of times over the years.

Peace ya'll!

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09-07-2014, 07:12 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(09-07-2014 06:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 09:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  Where I live, the economy relies heavily on organic food production, among other things.

We recently banned GMO crops in the county. They cross pollinate organically grown crops. These are ruined because they now show as containing internal pesticides.

Also, the area grows heirloom crops for their very superior flavor and these are used in top restaurants. They cannot be transported far or picked by machines because they are bred for flavor and not thickness of skin or firmness.

GMO crops taste like crap, and the younger generations have no idea that they actually never tasted real veggies, which are sweet and flavorful and delicious. The hybrids grown for supermarket have lost all flavor, and even if they were freshly ripe when eaten (which they are not) there is no comparison with real food anymore. The fricking tomatoes in the supermarket taste like cardboard.

I voted against GMO because I think at the very least as a niche market we have the right to eat healthy, good tasting food. GMO will wipe out the heirlooms and the organics.

There is no co-existence. It's an either/or. There is no shielding against cross pollination.

Of course the ban will be over ruled by federal legislation and the heirlooms will be destroyed anyway.

One of the many reasons I am glad I am old and don't have to deal with our brave, new, hopelessly overpopulated world. I really like a nice fresh tomato, sun warmed, directly from the bush. I love to break an ear of corn from the stalk and put it straight on the grill. The sweetness can't be beat, and it still actually tastes like corn unlike the hybrids sold in the store. And so on. I would miss these things terribly. Fresh food is one of the great pleasures in my life. I understand that the majority of the population already never tasted real, sun ripened veggies that were selected for superior flavor. It makes me sad.

I think you are conflating GMO varieties with the varieties that have been developed by traditional means by agribusinesses. Flavorless veggies long pre-date GMO technology.

Now, if one starts with a flavorless tomato and then applies gene splicing to it, you get what you get - a flavorless GMO variety.

But imagine starting with an heirloom tomato and adding disease resistance to it. Drooling

That will never happen for the very same reasons that heirlooms are not sold in supermarkets. Hybrids are already the result of alteration that makes mass consumption possible. Heirlooms are grown in gardens and in pots on decks or in windows and eaten within a day or two in the same town. Improving the shelf life and making them easy to pick and transport is what we have done already, that is what the hybrids are. Hybrids don't tend to cross pollinate much. But GMO plants do cross pollinate freely, they are resistant to the natural enemies and just grow anyplace and take over. Like Kudzu.

Last not least, I do not like eating stuff without knowing what's in it. GMO foods are not labelled and you eat a ton of pesticide without being aware of it. Long term effects are, as usually in the food industry, not tested.

I think GMO foods can be grown in areas where they do not interfere with natural plants and they should be labelled so consumers have a choice.

The herbicide roundup WAS a great idea - because it only affects the very plant you need to get rid of. That advantage is totally lost if you spray everything with it and eliminate all vegetation except the GMO plants. The shit drifts too when not targeted but sprayed over large areas and affects large parts of surrounding nature. A little wind can carry it a long ways. Any organic crops nearby are in danger of being contaminated, and the effects on the eco system are unknown.

It is amazing to me how people have totally accepted that companies add to food whatever they want without proof of safety. One by one artificial coloring agents are being pulled because after 20 years of use we see that they directly cause cancer. (The yellow in your macaroni and cheese is still distributed despite this knowledge).

It's almost funny how we pursue the war on drugs and tobacco yet allow contamination of our food without proper testing. The effects of each additive is not tested long term, and the interaction of these chemicals isn't tested at all.

Anyway, end of rant. 20 years from now I'll be dead or preparing my exit and so I don't really have a horse in this race anymore. I assume I will be able to grow my own produce until then. It's the long term effect that scares me.

Meta, I chose to retire in the rural US.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-07-2014, 07:21 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(09-07-2014 07:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  That will never happen for the very same reasons that heirlooms are not sold in supermarkets. Hybrids are already the result of alteration that makes mass consumption possible. Heirlooms are grown in gardens and in pots on decks or in windows and eaten within a day or two in the same town. Improving the shelf life and making them easy to pick and transport is what we have done already, that is what the hybrids are. Hybrids don't tend to cross pollinate much. But GMO plants do cross pollinate freely, they are resistant to the natural enemies and just grow anyplace and take over. Like Kudzu.

Why do you think that? I don't believe that is true as all of them will pollinate if allowed to.

Quote:Last not least, I do not like eating stuff without knowing what's in it. GMO foods are not labelled and you eat a ton of pesticide without being aware of it. Long term effects are, as usually in the food industry, not tested.

I think you have a misunderstanding of GMO foods. What pesticide? Bt?

Quote:Most genetically engineered (GE) crops are either engineered to produce their own pesticide in the form of Bacillus thurengiensis (Bt) or are engineered to be resistant to herbicides, which include "Roundup-Ready" crops. Bt is used by organic farmers as a least-toxic alternative to control bugs. Organic farmers use Bt sparingly and only as a last resort, but thousands of acres of GE crops contain Bt. It's only a matter of time before insects become resistant to Bt, some scientists say as little as 3-5 years.

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09-07-2014, 08:05 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(09-07-2014 07:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-07-2014 07:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  That will never happen for the very same reasons that heirlooms are not sold in supermarkets. Hybrids are already the result of alteration that makes mass consumption possible. Heirlooms are grown in gardens and in pots on decks or in windows and eaten within a day or two in the same town. Improving the shelf life and making them easy to pick and transport is what we have done already, that is what the hybrids are. Hybrids don't tend to cross pollinate much. But GMO plants do cross pollinate freely, they are resistant to the natural enemies and just grow anyplace and take over. Like Kudzu.

Why do you think that? I don't believe that is true as all of them will pollinate if allowed to.

Quote:Last not least, I do not like eating stuff without knowing what's in it. GMO foods are not labelled and you eat a ton of pesticide without being aware of it. Long term effects are, as usually in the food industry, not tested.

I think you have a misunderstanding of GMO foods. What pesticide? Bt?

Quote:Most genetically engineered (GE) crops are either engineered to produce their own pesticide in the form of Bacillus thurengiensis (Bt) or are engineered to be resistant to herbicides, which include "Roundup-Ready" crops. Bt is used by organic farmers as a least-toxic alternative to control bugs. Organic farmers use Bt sparingly and only as a last resort, but thousands of acres of GE crops contain Bt. It's only a matter of time before insects become resistant to Bt, some scientists say as little as 3-5 years.

It's the roundup that worries me. I use it myself in my flower garden because it is so selective - if applied directly to one leaf on a targeted plant, that plant will die within a few days without any effect on any other plants or the soil. It is systemic, it works from the root up. It is contained to only the intended plant (unless you spray when there is wind).

GMO use takes away the very thing that makes this poison useful - targeting. You now spray indiscriminately because your GMO crop is not affected. Everything else under the sun is.

Organic farmers have used BT very sparingly for a couple of decades. The operative word here is "sparingly". With mass use, we will lose this benign pesticide soon.

Hybrids don't tend to cross pollinate much. I have grown them mingled with heirlooms and no cross pollination occurred. Their genes seem to be very specialized. I don't know of anyone propagating hybrids - they are propagated in controlled settings and brand named and sold as brands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/busine....html?_r=0

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09-07-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(09-07-2014 06:34 AM)Cephalotus Wrote:  It's tomorrow, and I'm back. It doesn't look like anything is going to get accomplished in this thread, so it would probably be best if I just continue on. Everything is going in circles like a dog chasing it's own tail and I truly don't have the time or energy for drama like this, especially with a group of people I don't even know in real life (that I, consequently, don't owe anything.)

I seriously don't know what I'm expected to do here--browse through every single file and powerpoint on my laptop so I can copy & paste the links to every single study I've ever had to cite for an assignment? (I'm not an immature teenager that is going to go through that much trouble just to feel like I "won" an internet argument. There are literally a hundred other things that would be a better use of my time.) Or should we all just play the game of back-and-forth/tit-for-tat that Zeke already tried to start (and I predicted?) Experience tells me that this conversation can't go anywhere, and you guys might want to ask yourselves why you are even pushing the issue so hard. Confused I'm not trying to get creationism into our science classes, or make vaccination a "family choice." We are just a random collection of people on a forum who happen to be discussing a hot button issue. You guys are up in arms as though "defeating" me is going to somehow remove all non-skeptics from the face of the Earth. It's weird, creepy, and reminds me of behavior Chippy would find acceptable. (For crying out loud--I posted a .gov link to the laws we were talking about, and one of you actually claimed that Monsanto never properly suing anyone was somehow indicative that they never would! They've settled out of court with plenty of companies, and if you actually read the damn thing you will see that they easily could.) Again, you're all spouting out red herrings that you probably heard from someone else. You're saying things that look good on the surface, but if you really stop to consider them, they have no real substance.

To the other people in the thread that are genuinely curious and were actually interested in discussing the issue: It's one of those topics that you'll have to just find someone locally to chat up. People on the internet are still in that phase where every convo about this is going to be reduced to a pissing contest. I know because it's happened to me literally dozens of times over the years.

Peace ya'll!

For the love of god. Post a couple then, or just your favorite one. I have read every comment you made in this thread, and your general banter and anecdotes alone have persuaded me to take you seriously. Everyone in this thread is willing to believe you know what you are talking about, and are going to provide evidence and viewpoints we haven't yet considered. Now do it. For the last three pages the responses to your posts have gone something like this "you think GMO's are bad and you claim to have studies. I would like to see them.... (plus blah)" to which you respond "(retort to blah) ... it's all pointless not again". POST YOUR STUDIES. I, for one, will read them.
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09-07-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(08-07-2014 09:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  Where I live, the economy relies heavily on organic food production, among other things.

We recently banned GMO crops in the county. They cross pollinate organically grown crops. These are ruined because they now show as containing internal pesticides.

Also, the area grows heirloom crops for their very superior flavor and these are used in top restaurants. They cannot be transported far or picked by machines because they are bred for flavor and not thickness of skin or firmness.

GMO crops taste like crap, and the younger generations have no idea that they actually never tasted real veggies, which are sweet and flavorful and delicious. The hybrids grown for supermarket have lost all flavor, and even if they were freshly ripe when eaten (which they are not) there is no comparison with real food anymore. The fricking tomatoes in the supermarket taste like cardboard.

I voted against GMO because I think at the very least as a niche market we have the right to eat healthy, good tasting food. GMO will wipe out the heirlooms and the organics.

There is no co-existence. It's an either/or. There is no shielding against cross pollination.

Of course the ban will be over ruled by federal legislation and the heirlooms will be destroyed anyway.

One of the many reasons I am glad I am old and don't have to deal with our brave, new, hopelessly overpopulated world. I really like a nice fresh tomato, sun warmed, directly from the bush. I love to break an ear of corn from the stalk and put it straight on the grill. The sweetness can't be beat, and it still actually tastes like corn unlike the hybrids sold in the store. And so on. I would miss these things terribly. Fresh food is one of the great pleasures in my life. I understand that the majority of the population already never tasted real, sun ripened veggies that were selected for superior flavor. It makes me sad.

Give me your zip code. I'm coming to visit Tongue
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09-07-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: I found this neat article on GMOs
(09-07-2014 10:08 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Give me your zip code. I'm coming to visit Tongue

Dream on. Big Grin

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