I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
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08-02-2018, 04:26 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 03:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Those earlier church guys were the best and brightest of their time - because an academic career was mostly made possible within a church context.

Is it worth pointing out that whilst those working for the church were the brightest of their time, it doesn't necessarily mean they were the "smartest" all around people. My understanding is that whilst they were well educated for the time, the church only prescribed to teachings of other church members. IE not looking into alternate medical practices proposed by people not originally from a christian background, as it was deemed heresy and "improper", yet would happily apply cow dung to wounds and the such like, because "that's what our books tell us".

Of course in a Church context they could read/write, to recite and copy the bible and officiate over the people of the area. Churches, at one time, would be the focal point/leading authority of the town or city that developed around them, in England at least, so those skills were needed, but unless you came from a rich family or became a member of the church, you would probably never read/write at all.

The church has been an agent of change, but only really to get people "on-side", never really for the benefit of humanity as a whole.

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08-02-2018, 04:41 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 04:26 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  The church has been an agent of change, but only really to get people "on-side", never really for the benefit of humanity as a whole.

Christianity was dominant in Europe for a long time. If you make such broad statements about it, you're likely to be correct about some times and places and incorrect about others.

It's odd to me that so many people have this idea that clergymen always opposed new ideas. Some did and some didn't.

Has anybody here heard of William Heytesbury or Thomas Bradwardine? They were professors and theologians at Merton College Oxford in the 14th century. They read Aristotle's conclusions about motion (since Aquinas had made that acceptable) and demonstrated that much of what Aristotle said was wrong. They calculated new ways to quantify motion. Bradwardine discovered the mean-speed theorem -- "The Law of Falling Bodies" -- many years before Galileo. When Newton said that he stood on the shoulders of giants, these are some of the people he was referring to.

It is prejudice and perhaps ideological propaganda to say that Christianity opposes new ideas as a general principle.
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08-02-2018, 04:47 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 04:04 AM)RBMG Wrote:  Religion, the theory of EVERYTHING! Because we know it all!

Don't have a moral barometer? GAWD!

Not sure how science and other cool, shiny stuff works? GAWD!

Feel like touching kids but are aware that doing this is insanely harmful to individuals and society but still want to get away with being a pedophile because hey, holes is holes...? GAAAAWWWD.

Religion is a cure all for dumb people.

Anyway, decent response there Rob I enjoyed watching. Gonna check out some of your other vids too! I'll be honest I didn't even watch his reply to your reply because I'm really tired right now, should be sleeping and simply have a very low tolerance for intellectually dishonest bullshit at the moment. Will finish watching later. Congrats.

Thanks, I appreciate it! My channel is a mixture of serious vids and stupid crap trying to be funny Big Grin

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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08-02-2018, 05:01 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 04:26 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  IE not looking into alternate medical practices proposed by people not originally from a christian background, as it was deemed heresy and "improper", yet would happily apply cow dung to wounds and the such like, because "that's what our books tell us".

Actually this is incorrect, as far as I am aware. The Muslims transmitted a large number of Greek mdeical texts (and some of their own) via Spain. No one gave a shit that they weren't Christian.

You have to remember that medical knowledge at the time was rudimentary, and "the ancients" in those days really had been more advanced than their descendants. So it wasn't unreasonable to look for medical knowledge in old books.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-02-2018, 05:14 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 05:01 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-02-2018 04:26 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  IE not looking into alternate medical practices proposed by people not originally from a christian background, as it was deemed heresy and "improper", yet would happily apply cow dung to wounds and the such like, because "that's what our books tell us".

Actually this is incorrect, as far as I am aware. The Muslims transmitted a large number of Greek mdeical texts (and some of their own) via Spain. No one gave a shit that they weren't Christian.

You have to remember that medical knowledge at the time was rudimentary, and "the ancients" in those days really had been more advanced than their descendants. So it wasn't unreasonable to look for medical knowledge in old books.
If that's correct, then hush my mouth Laugh out load

From what I had read, many new medical practices/techniques where coming from Muslim countries, that weren't in pre-existing text books (that the christian scholars would study from) and thus deemed them to be "not correct". If true, then it would be an indication of not allowing critical thinking on known subjects, but its something I'll look into.

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08-02-2018, 05:17 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 05:14 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  not allowing critical thinking on known subjects, but its something I'll look into.

Theologian Gregory of Nyssa urged people to do as much original research as possible. He specifically recommended the dissection of cadavers for study. If the Byzantine economy didn't go for it, it wasn't the fault of the church there.
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08-02-2018, 08:12 AM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
Church of the 17th century and later was more famously inimical to knowledge than the earlier church. Think Copernicus, Galileo etc. Also they truly didn't like especially the philosophers of the renaissance era who actually took up questioning God's existence - David Hume and people like Voltaire and Diderot. That was also political. French King for example ruled by Divine Right. If there's no God then no Divine Right, hence you betcha he was right bang alongside the idea of stringing up heretics by the neck until dead.

Early church, there wasn't as much call to squash independent thought, because God was considered self-evident. Example: the plague of the 13th century. Some countries had over 50% mortality. Try to imagine that. One in every two people you know dead. In the space of a few weeks. You fucking bet your life the survivors knew God was out there, and he was *pissed*.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-02-2018, 03:15 PM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 04:41 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  It is prejudice and perhaps ideological propaganda to say that Christianity opposes new ideas as a general principle.

Hell, the famous Occam's Razor, the foundation of skepticism and one of the foundational tool of atheism today was popularised by a monk and a theologian of the name of William of Ockam (technically, it was developped by several other medieval philosophers, which, let's face it, were pretty much all theologian too, most importantly Duns Scotus).

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08-02-2018, 04:17 PM
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 08:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  Think Copernicus, Galileo etc.

Copernicus had a degree in canon law, and did an apprenticeship at the Papal Curia.

This is from Wikipedia:

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In 1533, Johann Albrecht Widmannstetter delivered a series of lectures in Rome outlining Copernicus's theory. Pope Clement VII and several Catholic cardinals heard the lectures and were interested in the theory. On 1 November 1536, Cardinal Nikolaus von Schönberg, Archbishop of Capua, wrote to Copernicus from Rome:
Some years ago word reached me concerning your proficiency, of which everybody constantly spoke. At that time I began to have a very high regard for you... For I had learned that you had not merely mastered the discoveries of the ancient astronomers uncommonly well but had also formulated a new cosmology. In it you maintain that the earth moves; that the sun occupies the lowest, and thus the central, place in the universe... Therefore with the utmost earnestness I entreat you, most learned sir, unless I inconvenience you, to communicate this discovery of yours to scholars, and at the earliest possible moment to send me your writings on the sphere of the universe together with the tables and whatever else you have that is relevant to this subject ...[74]
By then Copernicus's work was nearing its definitive form, and rumors about his theory had reached educated people all over Europe. Despite urgings from many quarters, Copernicus delayed publication of his book, perhaps from fear of criticism—a fear delicately expressed in the subsequent dedication of his masterpiece to Pope Paul III. Scholars disagree on whether Copernicus's concern was limited to possible astronomical and philosophical objections, or whether he was also concerned about religious objections.[f]

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So he may have feared that the church would oppose it. But maybe not.

Galileo had many supporters in the Vatican. They weren't able to help him much after he published a book calling the Pope an idiot. Even today, it would be considered unwise for a scientist to publish such a book about the one man who has the power to shut you down.

Galileo in Rome

So the examples of the Vatican opposing science are not as strong as propagandists like to say. Other than Galileo, it's hard to find any examples of the terrible oppression. (Giordano Bruno doesn't count; he was executed for trying to replace Christianity with a made-up Egyptian religion based on forged plates. I am not saying it was good to execute him, but I am saying that it was not oppression of science.)
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08-02-2018, 11:26 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2018 11:38 PM by morondog.)
RE: I got featured in a Godless Cranium video!
(08-02-2018 04:17 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  (Giordano Bruno doesn't count; he was executed for trying to replace Christianity with a made-up Egyptian religion based on forged plates. I am not saying it was good to execute him, but I am saying that it was not oppression of science.)

Bro. The Church executed people for disagreeing with them. There's no way to soften that. The Church supressed knowledge in the name of dogma, there's no way around that. They literally threatened Galileo with death, it was only 'cos he caved that he was allowed to remain under house arrest. The fact that the Pope was his mate doesn't change any of that. And the Church propounds a made up religion based on forged scripture. So it's the height of hypocrisy as well, to kill people for the same stupid shit you do.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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