I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
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19-09-2012, 10:51 PM
I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
Seriously. It was weird. I was simultaneously trying to disprove myself on two different sides.

The topic was:

Questioning the concept of an eternal soul.


Participants

1) Jeremy - questioning the validity of an eternal soul
2) KC - defending the validity of an everlasting soul

If a soul is eternal - goes on forever - there are some major logical issues to deal with:

1) When does a soul become initialized?
2) If a soul is forever, have souls always existed? If so, why do we have no recollection of before life.
3) Since we have no recollection of before life, then it's not far off to say we won't have recollection after life.
4) Eternal = infinite... so, that means there couldn't have been a beginning. If there is no end, then there is no beginning, which brings us back to question 2.
5) If we go on forever, then we will be affected by time... eventually. Eternity, in the confines of time, seems to be miserable.
6) Even if you say that we will be in paradise for all eternity, we are still affected by time; which means, we will eventually be affected negatively. Time affects everything negatively.


Very good analysis, Jeremy... let me look some things up.

All right... done.

So, few things I need to address before we get started.

Our souls are not eternal. Our souls are everlasting. There is a difference. The language in the Bible describes our souls as everlasting. They have a beginning but not an end. God is eternal. This is an attribute of God and only God. Eternal is without a beginning or an end aka infinity. Think of God as a line

<------------------------->

goes on forever in each direction with no starting point or ending point.

We are rays

0-------------------->

we have a beginning but no end. We have a starting point but no ending point. We are in no way infinite.

1) That is a tough question. I really don't have a definitive answer for that. I don't know when God initializes individual's souls. I suppose this is something only for God to know.
2) No. See above. Souls are everlasting; not eternal. Only God existed before. He had to initialize us first.
3) See above.
4) Eternal does equal infinite but we are not infinite. Again, above.
5&6) We are affected by time, yes, because we are not eternal. Infinity cannot be affected by time aka God. Time is amoral. Time isn't good or bad. It's our perception of us and our world that affects how we view time. Sin affects us negatively; thus, creating a negative perception of time. If there is no sin, then there is no negativity. In our everlasting state, sin will be no more. Without sin, our perception of time will only be positive.


Hmmm. Okay, KC, I can accept what you're saying about everlasting vs eternal.

But here's another question: are we going to even be governed by time in our everlasting state?


Yes. Again, only God is eternal and isn't affect by the confines of time. God created time with a purpose and it has structure. Also, since we have a beginning (a ray), we have to be governed by time or we would be infinite. Since we know that we aren't infinite...

Wait... how do you know we aren't infinite?

Do you remember everything before and after everything?

Ummm... no?

Precisely.


Fair enough. Go on.


Anyway, we're not infinite so we are structure by time. We have a beginning but no end, so from the simple fact that we do have a beginning we must be governed by time.

Plus, when the scriptures speak of heaven it "talks" in references of time... years mainly.


Ehh, kind of a stretch.


Maybe, but there is a clear distinction between eternal and everlasting in scripture. Want me to show you?

...I was there when you looked it up.


Oh yeah.

-_-

But anyway, a good summary is if it was created, it has to be governed by time. Since a beginning can only begin within the confines of time.


A ray?

Yeah.

So, God is eternal and has no beginning or end?

Yeah, infinite.

And infinity can't be governed by time because it acts outside of time?

Exactly.

Welp. What do you want to do now?

I don't know. Post about it on TTA?

You have no life.

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19-09-2012, 10:55 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(19-09-2012 10:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Seriously. It was weird. I was simultaneously trying to disprove myself on two different sides.

The topic was:

Questioning the concept of an eternal soul.


Participants

1) Jeremy - questioning the validity of an eternal soul
2) KC - defending the validity of an everlasting soul

If a soul is eternal - goes on forever - there are some major logical issues to deal with:

1) When does a soul become initialized?
2) If a soul is forever, have souls always existed? If so, why do we have no recollection of before life.
3) Since we have no recollection of before life, then it's not far off to say we won't have recollection after life.
4) Eternal = infinite... so, that means there couldn't have been a beginning. If there is no end, then there is no beginning, which brings us back to question 2.
5) If we go on forever, then we will be affected by time... eventually. Eternity, in the confines of time, seems to be miserable.
6) Even if you say that we will be in paradise for all eternity, we are still affected by time; which means, we will eventually be affected negatively. Time affects everything negatively.


Very good analysis, Jeremy... let me look some things up.

All right... done.

So, few things I need to address before we get started.

Our souls are not eternal. Our souls are everlasting. There is a difference. The language in the Bible describes our souls as everlasting. They have a beginning but not an end. God is eternal. This is an attribute of God and only God. Eternal is without a beginning or an end aka infinity. Think of God as a line

<------------------------->

goes on forever in each direction with no starting point or ending point.

We are rays

0-------------------->

we have a beginning but no end. We have a starting point but no ending point. We are in no way infinite.

1) That is a tough question. I really don't have a definitive answer for that. I don't know when God initializes individual's souls. I suppose this is something only for God to know.
2) No. See above. Souls are everlasting; not eternal. Only God existed before. He had to initialize us first.
3) See above.
4) Eternal does equal infinite but we are not infinite. Again, above.
5&6) We are affected by time, yes, because we are not eternal. Infinity cannot be affected by time aka God. Time is amoral. Time isn't good or bad. It's our perception of us and our world that affects how we view time. Sin affects us negatively; thus, creating a negative perception of time. If there is no sin, then there is no negativity. In our everlasting state, sin will be no more. Without sin, our perception of time will only be positive.


Hmmm. Okay, KC, I can accept what you're saying about everlasting vs eternal.

But here's another question: are we going to even be governed by time in our everlasting state?


Yes. Again, only God is eternal and isn't affect by the confines of time. God created time with a purpose and it has structure. Also, since we have a beginning (a ray), we have to be governed by time or we would be infinite. Since we know that we aren't infinite...

Wait... how do you know we aren't infinite?

Do you remember everything before and after everything?

Ummm... no?

Precisely.


Fair enough. Go on.


Anyway, we're not infinite so we are structure by time. We have a beginning but no end, so from the simple fact that we do have a beginning we must be governed by time.

Plus, when the scriptures speak of heaven it "talks" in references of time... years mainly.


Ehh, kind of a stretch.


Maybe, but there is a clear distinction between eternal and everlasting in scripture. Want me to show you?

...I was there when you looked it up.


Oh yeah.

-_-

But anyway, a good summary is if it was created, it has to be governed by time. Since a beginning can only begin within the confines of time.


A ray?

Yeah.

So, God is eternal and has no beginning or end?

Yeah, infinite.

And infinity can't be governed by time because it acts outside of time?

Exactly.

Welp. What do you want to do now?

I don't know. Post about it on TTA?

You have no life.

Foolish Jeremy.

He accepted the fact that KC changed up stuff. He questioned his version of the soul, which was wrong. So, instead of questioning if there is a soul in the first place, he asks a question which was just an easy refutation.

Question on something that doesn't require a presuppostion. Like, whether or not there is a soul, or wether or not there is a heaven, or wether or not the Bible is inspired by God at all. These questions require no assumptions.

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19-09-2012, 10:58 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(19-09-2012 10:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  You have no life.

Well, relative to this time, you do. Big Grin
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19-09-2012, 11:02 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
If souls exist as defined then they interact with the human mind in some way.

The human mind is demonstrably governed by physical processes in the brain.

If the soul interacts with the brain in any meaningful way, then regardless of its supernatural nature it must have some type of physical affect on those physical processes.

Science is currently able to or will in the future be able to measure those affects.

Those affects have not yet been observed.

Therefore until those affects are demonstrated, the null hypothesis (there are no souls) is preferred.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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19-09-2012, 11:04 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
I know you have rather..odd... beliefs KC, but I didn't think you were schizophrenic.

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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19-09-2012, 11:17 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
Ya both lost. It's a miracle. Angel

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19-09-2012, 11:18 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
KC, do you realize that there's a small step between talking to Jeremy and talking to God?
Both are imaginary characters that talk back to you (in your head).

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19-09-2012, 11:21 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(19-09-2012 10:55 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 10:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Seriously. It was weird. I was simultaneously trying to disprove myself on two different sides.

The topic was:

Questioning the concept of an eternal soul.


Participants

1) Jeremy - questioning the validity of an eternal soul
2) KC - defending the validity of an everlasting soul

If a soul is eternal - goes on forever - there are some major logical issues to deal with:

1) When does a soul become initialized?
2) If a soul is forever, have souls always existed? If so, why do we have no recollection of before life.
3) Since we have no recollection of before life, then it's not far off to say we won't have recollection after life.
4) Eternal = infinite... so, that means there couldn't have been a beginning. If there is no end, then there is no beginning, which brings us back to question 2.
5) If we go on forever, then we will be affected by time... eventually. Eternity, in the confines of time, seems to be miserable.
6) Even if you say that we will be in paradise for all eternity, we are still affected by time; which means, we will eventually be affected negatively. Time affects everything negatively.


Very good analysis, Jeremy... let me look some things up.

All right... done.

So, few things I need to address before we get started.

Our souls are not eternal. Our souls are everlasting. There is a difference. The language in the Bible describes our souls as everlasting. They have a beginning but not an end. God is eternal. This is an attribute of God and only God. Eternal is without a beginning or an end aka infinity. Think of God as a line

<------------------------->

goes on forever in each direction with no starting point or ending point.

We are rays

0-------------------->

we have a beginning but no end. We have a starting point but no ending point. We are in no way infinite.

1) That is a tough question. I really don't have a definitive answer for that. I don't know when God initializes individual's souls. I suppose this is something only for God to know.
2) No. See above. Souls are everlasting; not eternal. Only God existed before. He had to initialize us first.
3) See above.
4) Eternal does equal infinite but we are not infinite. Again, above.
5&6) We are affected by time, yes, because we are not eternal. Infinity cannot be affected by time aka God. Time is amoral. Time isn't good or bad. It's our perception of us and our world that affects how we view time. Sin affects us negatively; thus, creating a negative perception of time. If there is no sin, then there is no negativity. In our everlasting state, sin will be no more. Without sin, our perception of time will only be positive.


Hmmm. Okay, KC, I can accept what you're saying about everlasting vs eternal.

But here's another question: are we going to even be governed by time in our everlasting state?


Yes. Again, only God is eternal and isn't affect by the confines of time. God created time with a purpose and it has structure. Also, since we have a beginning (a ray), we have to be governed by time or we would be infinite. Since we know that we aren't infinite...

Wait... how do you know we aren't infinite?

Do you remember everything before and after everything?

Ummm... no?

Precisely.


Fair enough. Go on.


Anyway, we're not infinite so we are structure by time. We have a beginning but no end, so from the simple fact that we do have a beginning we must be governed by time.

Plus, when the scriptures speak of heaven it "talks" in references of time... years mainly.


Ehh, kind of a stretch.


Maybe, but there is a clear distinction between eternal and everlasting in scripture. Want me to show you?

...I was there when you looked it up.


Oh yeah.

-_-

But anyway, a good summary is if it was created, it has to be governed by time. Since a beginning can only begin within the confines of time.


A ray?

Yeah.

So, God is eternal and has no beginning or end?

Yeah, infinite.

And infinity can't be governed by time because it acts outside of time?

Exactly.

Welp. What do you want to do now?

I don't know. Post about it on TTA?

You have no life.

Foolish Jeremy.

He accepted the fact that KC changed up stuff. He questioned his version of the soul, which was wrong. So, instead of questioning if there is a soul in the first place, he asks a question which was just an easy refutation.

Question on something that doesn't require a presuppostion. Like, whether or not there is a soul, or wether or not there is a heaven, or wether or not the Bible is inspired by God at all. These questions require no assumptions.

That wasn't what the debate was about. It was a theological debate about the soul. To participate, both parties had to believe in a soul.

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19-09-2012, 11:26 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(19-09-2012 11:18 PM)KVron Wrote:  KC, do you realize that there's a small step between talking to Jeremy and talking to God?
Both are imaginary characters that talk back to you (in your head).

Dodgy

It was a hyperbolic, melodramatic interpretation of my thought process when I think of a theological problem.

I lay the problem out. I approach it from both sides. I try to discredit the claim and reconcile it with scripture and theology. Whichever side is more convincing, that's what I believe.

I'm not actually having a debate with my imaginary alter ego.

...can't have any fun no more.

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20-09-2012, 12:20 AM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(19-09-2012 11:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 10:55 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Foolish Jeremy.

He accepted the fact that KC changed up stuff. He questioned his version of the soul, which was wrong. So, instead of questioning if there is a soul in the first place, he asks a question which was just an easy refutation.

Question on something that doesn't require a presuppostion. Like, whether or not there is a soul, or wether or not there is a heaven, or wether or not the Bible is inspired by God at all. These questions require no assumptions.

That wasn't what the debate was about. It was a theological debate about the soul. To participate, both parties had to believe in a soul.
Do you see everlasting life ensconced within the duration of one human lifetime?
If so, and in accordance with the idea that God is quite capricious in his judgements, then does it not follow that everlasting life is simply the whim of a very strange and uncaring inventor god and his presumed existence outside of time has no relevance to us.
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