I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
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23-09-2012, 01:21 PM
 
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(23-09-2012 05:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(23-09-2012 05:54 AM)Egor Wrote:  When you die, you will realize that what you considerd "you" was just a dream image of you. You, as you think of you, will not exist anymore than your dream characters exist when you wake up in the morning. What will exist is the only mind that has ever existed, and it has always existed.
Have you died already? Otherwise, how would you know? Consider

I don't know. It's only what I think. I have dreams. In those dreams, I am God. So I think this life is a God dream, too and I am a dream character in it.
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23-09-2012, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2012 02:01 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(23-09-2012 01:21 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-09-2012 05:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you died already? Otherwise, how would you know? Consider

I don't know. It's only what I think. I have dreams. In those dreams, I am God. So I think this life is a God dream, too and I am a dream character in it.

You might like Borges' The Circular Ruins. I know I do. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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23-09-2012, 02:36 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(23-09-2012 01:21 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-09-2012 05:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you died already? Otherwise, how would you know? Consider

I don't know. It's only what I think. I have dreams. In those dreams, I am God. So I think this life is a God dream, too and I am a dream character in it.

Do you not think it is more probable that it is a dream that you have because you obsess over the subject?

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24-09-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(23-09-2012 11:08 AM)KVron Wrote:  I think we somehow hurt KC's feelings and he won't come back to answer Sad

lol no.

Just been really busy with work and life.

I'll get around to responding ASAP.

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24-09-2012, 08:18 AM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(23-09-2012 01:21 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-09-2012 05:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you died already? Otherwise, how would you know? Consider

I don't know. It's only what I think. I have dreams. In those dreams, I am God. So I think this life is a God dream, too and I am a dream character in it.

A lesser god than my Gwynnies. Big Grin

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24-09-2012, 12:24 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
I want a response to my discrediting of the "soul" concept.

If souls exist as described, they interact with the brain.

If they interact with the brain, that interaction is measurable.

We have not measured it.

Until we do measure it, the null hypothesis, the reasonable stance to take, is that souls probably do not exist.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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24-09-2012, 02:17 PM
 
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(24-09-2012 12:24 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I want a response to my discrediting of the "soul" concept.

If souls exist as described, they interact with the brain.

If they interact with the brain, that interaction is measurable.

We have not measured it.

Until we do measure it, the null hypothesis, the reasonable stance to take, is that souls probably do not exist.

Who says it has to be measurable? It is curious that the only organ of the body we don't really have a clue about is the brain, and we don't even have a decent theory of how the mind works, and yet the entire field of psychiatry (a field that pays my bills, by the way) is dedicated to treating illnesses of the mind.

I think the reason we don't understand how the mind interacts with the brain is because in our current way of analyzing natural phenomena, we will not admit into possibility anything that is not part of the physical universe.

To willfully raise my arm and pick up my coffee cup, my brain must fire neurons in exactly the right way to get exactly the right motor neurons to activate the exact muscles in exactly the right proportions. Moreover, all my other senses come into play in order to feed information to my brain, and ultimately to my mind, in order regulate the movements needed to take a sip.

Evidently, the mind is able to fire neurons. Technically, that would make it a form of telekenesis. But chemical reactions ultimately start at the quantum level, and no one fully understands the behavior of subatomic particles, which often behave in a manner that seems magical (such as the two slit experiment with photons).

There is a physical universe, but it is a manifestation of a mental universe. On one side of the coin is the physical world, on the other the world of mind, just like in a dream. In a dream there are all the trappings of a physical universe (air, ground, gravity, people, objects), but they are all just images constructed and controlled by the mind of the dreamer.

You want a physical explanation for how the mind stimulates the brain, but there isn't a physical explanation. Really, how could there be? No
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24-09-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
Woo, go Egor! Some rather nice reasoning in there! I would disagree though, we know quite a bit about the brain, enough to know about different areas being used for speech etc, enough to take out benign tumours, about how neurons fire - all mysteries a hundred years ago.

I wanna think more about the rest of your post before I attempt to shred it Big Grin
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24-09-2012, 04:31 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 04:39 PM by Vosur.)
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(24-09-2012 02:17 PM)Egor Wrote:  Who says it has to be measurable? It is curious that the only organ of the body we don't really have a clue about is the brain, and we don't even have a decent theory of how the mind works, and yet the entire field of psychiatry (a field that pays my bills, by the way) is dedicated to treating illnesses of the mind.

I think the reason we don't understand how the mind interacts with the brain is because in our current way of analyzing natural phenomena, we will not admit into possibility anything that is not part of the physical universe.
You're wrong, Egor. It's you who doesn't really have a clue about the brain. It has been studied intensively by neuroscientists and the likes of them for decades.

(24-09-2012 02:17 PM)Egor Wrote:  There is a physical universe, but it is a manifestation of a mental universe. On one side of the coin is the physical world, on the other the world of mind, just like in a dream. In a dream there are all the trappings of a physical universe (air, ground, gravity, people, objects), but they are all just images constructed and controlled by the mind of the dreamer.
And here we have another unsubstantiated hypothesis. You can talk gibberish all day long for all I care, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously when the only evidence you have is incredibly weak anecdotal evidence (dreams of being a god, precognition, etc.).

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24-09-2012, 07:03 PM
RE: I had a theological debate with myself tonight.
(24-09-2012 02:17 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 12:24 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I want a response to my discrediting of the "soul" concept.

If souls exist as described, they interact with the brain.

If they interact with the brain, that interaction is measurable.

We have not measured it.

Until we do measure it, the null hypothesis, the reasonable stance to take, is that souls probably do not exist.

Who says it has to be measurable? It is curious that the only organ of the body we don't really have a clue about is the brain, and we don't even have a decent theory of how the mind works, and yet the entire field of psychiatry (a field that pays my bills, by the way) is dedicated to treating illnesses of the mind.

I think the reason we don't understand how the mind interacts with the brain is because in our current way of analyzing natural phenomena, we will not admit into possibility anything that is not part of the physical universe.

To willfully raise my arm and pick up my coffee cup, my brain must fire neurons in exactly the right way to get exactly the right motor neurons to activate the exact muscles in exactly the right proportions. Moreover, all my other senses come into play in order to feed information to my brain, and ultimately to my mind, in order regulate the movements needed to take a sip.

Evidently, the mind is able to fire neurons. Technically, that would make it a form of telekenesis. But chemical reactions ultimately start at the quantum level, and no one fully understands the behavior of subatomic particles, which often behave in a manner that seems magical (such as the two slit experiment with photons).

There is a physical universe, but it is a manifestation of a mental universe. On one side of the coin is the physical world, on the other the world of mind, just like in a dream. In a dream there are all the trappings of a physical universe (air, ground, gravity, people, objects), but they are all just images constructed and controlled by the mind of the dreamer.

You want a physical explanation for how the mind stimulates the brain, but there isn't a physical explanation. Really, how could there be? No

Your argument from ignorance is utterly convincing. I bow before you. Bowing

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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