I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
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04-02-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And did those people all see some event that was interpreted to be that very thing? Ergo, it sounds like they shared an experience but explained it incorrectly. The observation was valid, but the conclusion was not.

Observations are not incorrect. They just are what they are. Conclusions can be flawed.

The notion that observations could be wrong en masse would mean that these people would all have to be experiencing the same delusion or hallucination, at the same time, about the same thing, and in different regions.

I've just looked it up and it's a recognised Catholic miracle.

Anyway, my point still stands. If a theist turned up here and claimed that 1000 people had all seen God (or any other ridiculous claim) we'd all instantly say how unreliable eye-witness testimony is.

Observations can very easily be wrong. The mind is suggestible, very suggestible. Memories can easily be distorted or just flat out falsified by the human brain without us ever being aware of it.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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04-02-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  So you are saying that thousands of people who lived then and saw dead Jews all suffer from illusions and the photographs are all staged? (No photoshop then)?

Once again I do not doubt the holocaust. I get the feeling you think I do.

The photo's are perfectly valid evidence. I am not saying that the people who testified to the holocaust are wrong. I am simply saying that eye witness testimony is unreliable, and when a theist appears here we're all the first one's to say that.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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04-02-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
So you ignored what I said about empathy. It's actually the answer to your original question "why do people "hate" holocaust conspiracists?"

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04-02-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:32 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 02:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And did those people all see some event that was interpreted to be that very thing? Ergo, it sounds like they shared an experience but explained it incorrectly. The observation was valid, but the conclusion was not.

Observations are not incorrect. They just are what they are. Conclusions can be flawed.

The notion that observations could be wrong en masse would mean that these people would all have to be experiencing the same delusion or hallucination, at the same time, about the same thing, and in different regions.

I've just looked it up and it's a recognised Catholic miracle.

Anyway, my point still stands. If a theist turned up here and claimed that 1000 people had all seen God (or any other ridiculous claim) we'd all instantly say how unreliable eye-witness testimony is.

Observations can very easily be wrong. The mind is suggestible, very suggestible. Memories can easily be distorted or just flat out falsified by the human brain without us ever being aware of it.
Agreed, but even the event you cite was a matter of suggestion to the people encouraged to stare at the sun. That is biased eye-witness testimony and anything that is biased is bad anyways. It could be biased statistics and we would not say that all statistics are rubbish, just biased statistics.

When people use the denial of eye-witness testimony for things like the holocaust, it is not because they believe those eye-witnesses were given suggestions and encouraged to see it, but that they are either wholly fabricated or that their perfectly legitimate observations draw the wrong conclusion.

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04-02-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  So you ignored what I said about empathy. It's actually the answer to your original question "why do people "hate" holocaust conspiracists?"

To be honest I'd rather clarify that I'm not a holocaust denier ahead of anything else.

Besides, it's something I already been over at least once and possible more times in this thread so far.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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04-02-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:34 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 02:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  So you are saying that thousands of people who lived then and saw dead Jews all suffer from illusions and the photographs are all staged? (No photoshop then)?

Once again I do not doubt the holocaust. I get the feeling you think I do.

The photo's are perfectly valid evidence. I am not saying that the people who testified to the holocaust are wrong. I am simply saying that eye witness testimony is unreliable, and when a theist appears here we're all the first one's to say that.

Unsubstantiated eye-witness testimony is unreliable as evidence.

Eye-witness testimony supported by physical evidence corroborates it, and vice versa.

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04-02-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 02:32 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I've just looked it up and it's a recognised Catholic miracle.

Anyway, my point still stands. If a theist turned up here and claimed that 1000 people had all seen God (or any other ridiculous claim) we'd all instantly say how unreliable eye-witness testimony is.

Observations can very easily be wrong. The mind is suggestible, very suggestible. Memories can easily be distorted or just flat out falsified by the human brain without us ever being aware of it.
Agreed, but even the event you cite was a matter of suggestion to the people encouraged to stare at the sun. That is biased eye-witness testimony and anything that is biased is bad anyways. It could be biased statistics and we would not say that all statistics are rubbish, just biased statistics.

When people use the denial of eye-witness testimony for things like the holocaust, it is not because they believe those eye-witnesses were given suggestions and encouraged to see it, but that they are either wholly fabricated or that their perfectly legitimate observations draw the wrong conclusion.
unbelievable that if the nazi's were committing mass murder they'd just leave dead bodies laying around. Unbelievable that the nazi's would intentionally destroy crematoriums their only way of disposing these dead bodies for good. Must have died sometime after all these alleged mass murders and mass burnings.
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04-02-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 02:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  So you ignored what I said about empathy. It's actually the answer to your original question "why do people "hate" holocaust conspiracists?"

To be honest I'd rather clarify that I'm not a holocaust denier ahead of anything else.

Besides, it's something I already been over at least once and possible more times in this thread so far.

That's fine and good. And people react to holocaust conspiracists the way they do because humans have evolved to feel empathy, and they defend the ones they empathize with, and that is natural and the way it should be.
It furthers the human race.

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04-02-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Agreed, but even the event you cite was a matter of suggestion to the people encouraged to stare at the sun. That is biased eye-witness testimony and anything that is biased is bad anyways. It could be biased statistics and we would not say that all statistics are rubbish, just biased statistics.

When people use the denial of eye-witness testimony for things like the holocaust, it is not because they believe those eye-witnesses were given suggestions and encouraged to see it, but that they are either wholly fabricated or that their perfectly legitimate observations draw the wrong conclusion.

True. But a witness doesn't need to be biased in any way to be wildly wrong. Take law enforcement, as I understand it it's very easy for a victim to implicate the wrong person, or fail to implicate the right person.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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04-02-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 02:43 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 02:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Agreed, but even the event you cite was a matter of suggestion to the people encouraged to stare at the sun. That is biased eye-witness testimony and anything that is biased is bad anyways. It could be biased statistics and we would not say that all statistics are rubbish, just biased statistics.

When people use the denial of eye-witness testimony for things like the holocaust, it is not because they believe those eye-witnesses were given suggestions and encouraged to see it, but that they are either wholly fabricated or that their perfectly legitimate observations draw the wrong conclusion.

True. But a witness doesn't need to be biased in any way to be wildly wrong. Take law enforcement, as I understand it it's very easy for a victim to implicate the wrong person, or fail to implicate the right person.
Or to confess to a crime they never committed.
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