I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
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03-02-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Recent and past events on the forum have left me with a question in my head that I cannot answer, maybe someone here can. Why does everyone hate holocaust deniers?

I'm being completely serious, I really don't understand it. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubts that the holocaust did happen, I just don't understand why we vilify people who are more sceptical.

I'm sure this is the point when someone is gonna say that it's a recognised historical event and it's stupid to question it, which is true. However, people on here regularly say you should question everything and not believe official accounts, why do they change their viewpoint regarding this topic? Another point here is that the moon landing is an even more recent and just as accepted event. Why do we accept people questioning that, yet not the holocaust? We even have a whole section dedicated to conspiracy theories. It's clear that we have no problem with people questioning recognised events, why is this one different?

The next thing I imagine I may hear is something about the number of people who are witnesses who've testified that it happened. Wanna know what else huge numbers of people testify to having seen? God. We're atheists, we spend our lives dismissing eye-witness testimony as unreliable yet suddenly, on this topic, it becomes totally reliable all of a sudden, why?

Someone is also bound to say that only anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazis question the holocaust. I doubt this. I'll accept that a high number of holocaust deniers are Neo-Nazis, but I highly doubt all are. To state that is like stating all moon-landing sceptics are communists. It's a pretty wild assertion. I think we should hear people out rather than judge them on their beliefs. After all, how many of us (especially the Americans here) criticise Christians for judging people simply for being atheists?

Finally, I'd like to also ask why we all become so Christian like when faced with a holocaust denier? We spend our time on the rest of the forum (for the most part) discussing things civilly and debating using facts and evidence to try and dismantle each other's arguments. Why when a holocaust denial thread pops up do we drop this approach and start name-calling, insulting, and demeaning the person? And why do we fail to attack their arguments with evidence (I know some people are here have done this, a lot haven't though)?

This brings me to one last point. Wanna know what's arguably the worst part of this? People who attack holocaust deniers (such as Nappa) with ridicule, and abuse, and unbacked up assertions, actually inadvertently make him (and his views) look more legitimate. I gotta hand it to Nappa, mad as his beliefs are he tries to convey them calmly and tries to back them up with what he considers to be evidence and logical arguments. If you saw two people having an argument on a topic you knew nothing about, one was trying to be calm and make points based on evidence, whilst one was just slinging mud and presenting no evidence, who would you think most likely to be right?

I don't villify anyone fool. The holocaust happened. The moon landing happened. ... End of story.

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03-02-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 12:56 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Ah ha. Here it is. We should only question something when we're unlikely to offend anyone. That's the other point people make. They try and find more positive ways of phrasing it though.

Anyways, let's get back to my last question. You originally asserted that we vilify them for questioning well documented facts, surely that means we should vilify anyone who denies the moon landing?
No, Hughsie, we don't vilify them just because we're offended. They voluntarily invite ridicule by turning the unimaginable suffering and humiliation, not to mention death, of millions, into a futile exercise of mental gymnastics and attempts at being cooler and more insightful than the rest of the blind sheep (read, the whole world). And yes, call me close-minded, but I find this repugnant.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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03-02-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 01:02 PM)kpax Wrote:  No. YOU asserted that we [whoever we is] vilify people for questioning well documented facts. I simply answered your question.

Not every person responds to "questioning" well documented facts in the way you describe so your over generalization of whatever point you think you have is a little too simplistic. You are oversimplifying and overgeneralizing something complicated and circumstantial.

We (as a forum, and in society) don't vilify people for questioning facts, we practically encourage it (at least society does). But we do vilify people for questioning this one specific fact. Why is this one different?

Anyway, back to my question. Do you, or do you not, believe that people who deny the moon landing should be treated the same as people who deny if the holocaust? If not, then why?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-02-2013, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 01:23 PM by Nappa.)
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Recent and past events on the forum have left me with a question in my head that I cannot answer, maybe someone here can. Why does everyone hate holocaust deniers?

I'm being completely serious, I really don't understand it. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubts that the holocaust did happen, I just don't understand why we vilify people who are more sceptical.

I'm sure this is the point when someone is gonna say that it's a recognised historical event and it's stupid to question it, which is true. However, people on here regularly say you should question everything and not believe official accounts, why do they change their viewpoint regarding this topic? Another point here is that the moon landing is an even more recent and just as accepted event. Why do we accept people questioning that, yet not the holocaust? We even have a whole section dedicated to conspiracy theories. It's clear that we have no problem with people questioning recognised events, why is this one different?

The next thing I imagine I may hear is something about the number of people who are witnesses who've testified that it happened. Wanna know what else huge numbers of people testify to having seen? God. We're atheists, we spend our lives dismissing eye-witness testimony as unreliable yet suddenly, on this topic, it becomes totally reliable all of a sudden, why?

Someone is also bound to say that only anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazis question the holocaust. I doubt this. I'll accept that a high number of holocaust deniers are Neo-Nazis, but I highly doubt all are. To state that is like stating all moon-landing sceptics are communists. It's a pretty wild assertion. I think we should hear people out rather than judge them on their beliefs. After all, how many of us (especially the Americans here) criticise Christians for judging people simply for being atheists?

Finally, I'd like to also ask why we all become so Christian like when faced with a holocaust denier? We spend our time on the rest of the forum (for the most part) discussing things civilly and debating using facts and evidence to try and dismantle each other's arguments. Why when a holocaust denial thread pops up do we drop this approach and start name-calling, insulting, and demeaning the person? And why do we fail to attack their arguments with evidence (I know some people are here have done this, a lot haven't though)?

This brings me to one last point. Wanna know what's arguably the worst part of this? People who attack holocaust deniers (such as Nappa) with ridicule, and abuse, and unbacked up assertions, actually inadvertently make him (and his views) look more legitimate. I gotta hand it to Nappa, mad as his beliefs are he tries to convey them calmly and tries to back them up with what he considers to be evidence and logical arguments. If you saw two people having an argument on a topic you knew nothing about, one was trying to be calm and make points based on evidence, whilst one was just slinging mud and presenting no evidence, who would you think most likely to be right?
I REALLY fucking hate psychology, but this is relevant Hughsie, from me The Poe Master with love. It's not about the holocaust but it has the same relevance to your question. It's ironic that this video I posted was actually taken from a larger video which talked a little bit about how the holocaust was 'covered up' by the nazi's etc etc.


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03-02-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 01:05 PM)Vera Wrote:  No, Hughsie, we don't vilify them just because we're offended. They voluntarily invite ridicule by turning the unimaginable suffering and humiliation, not to mention death, of millions, into a futile exercise of mental gymnastics and attempts at being cooler and more insightful than the rest of the blind sheep (read, the whole world). And yes, call me close-minded, but I find this repugnant.

I don't believe they choose to view the world this way (well, Neo-Nazis do but they aren't really the subject of this thread). I think they are guilty of mis-interpreting the evidence. I think they're guilty of being stupid, but not much more.

GirlyMan Wrote:I don't villify anyone fool. The holocaust happened. The moon landing happened. ... End of story.

Love it! Big Grin

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-02-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 01:11 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I think they're guilty of being stupid, but not much more.

Pretty much what I was going to say. Still, there is stupid and then there is stupid.

And if you were one of those kids (or their kids) I'm sure you'd think it's a particularly vile form of stupid.
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03-02-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
Using only holy literature to confirm a hypothesis is somewhat akin to using only nazi literature to confirm a hypothesis. Oh well, I guess I'll have to rethink that non-existant god thing.

Well, millions of people were not murdered in conjunction with the moon landings.... Consider or do you know something you're not saying, Hughsie ... ?

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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03-02-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 01:18 PM)Vera Wrote:  Pretty much what I was going to say. Still, there is stupid and then there is stupid.

And if you were one of those kids (or their kids) I'm sure you'd think it's a particularly vile form of stupid.
[Image: Romani_children_Auschwitz.jpg]

Oh I agree it's an elevated level of stupid. I'm not sure whether I would call it a vile form of stupid. That would suggest that there can be positive and negative forms of stupid. I kinda think that stupid is stupid, it's neither positive or negative, if you get what I mean (and I understand if you don't, I'm well aware of how unclear that sounds Big Grin).

Still though, the question remains. Should we hate, or vilify, or attack people simply for being stupid?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-02-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
My grandma never believed the moon landing happened.
She was born 1880 or thereabouts, and she could not fit it into her concept of reality.
Having lived through Hitler's times, she could understand propaganda and that's what she thought it was. American propaganda.
Doesn't make her a villain. She was anything but a villain, she was a sweetheart.
She wouldn't have attacked you for believing it though, perhaps that's where the difference is.

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03-02-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
Because holocaust denial is invariably a veneer over antisemitism, racism, and glorification of Nazis.

It is a conspiracy theory used in service of hatred. It is dishonest on multiple levels.

The evidence for the deaths of millions of people at the hands of the Nazis is incontrovertible.

If one wants to argue whether 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 or more were gassed as opposed to some other manner of death, we can have an evidence-based discussion that might even be mildly interesting. But to deny the deaths of millions were not the result of racism and antisemitism and a perverted eugenic dream is nothing more than a denial of humanity, reason, and evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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