I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
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03-02-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Recent and past events on the forum have left me with a question in my head that I cannot answer, maybe someone here can. Why does everyone hate holocaust deniers?

I'm being completely serious, I really don't understand it. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubts that the holocaust did happen, I just don't understand why we vilify people who are more sceptical.

I'm sure this is the point when someone is gonna say that it's a recognised historical event and it's stupid to question it, which is true. However, people on here regularly say you should question everything and not believe official accounts, why do they change their viewpoint regarding this topic? Another point here is that the moon landing is an even more recent and just as accepted event. Why do we accept people questioning that, yet not the holocaust? We even have a whole section dedicated to conspiracy theories. It's clear that we have no problem with people questioning recognised events, why is this one different?

The next thing I imagine I may hear is something about the number of people who are witnesses who've testified that it happened. Wanna know what else huge numbers of people testify to having seen? God. We're atheists, we spend our lives dismissing eye-witness testimony as unreliable yet suddenly, on this topic, it becomes totally reliable all of a sudden, why?

Someone is also bound to say that only anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazis question the holocaust. I doubt this. I'll accept that a high number of holocaust deniers are Neo-Nazis, but I highly doubt all are. To state that is like stating all moon-landing sceptics are communists. It's a pretty wild assertion. I think we should hear people out rather than judge them on their beliefs. After all, how many of us (especially the Americans here) criticise Christians for judging people simply for being atheists?

Finally, I'd like to also ask why we all become so Christian like when faced with a holocaust denier? We spend our time on the rest of the forum (for the most part) discussing things civilly and debating using facts and evidence to try and dismantle each other's arguments. Why when a holocaust denial thread pops up do we drop this approach and start name-calling, insulting, and demeaning the person? And why do we fail to attack their arguments with evidence (I know some people are here have done this, a lot haven't though)?

This brings me to one last point. Wanna know what's arguably the worst part of this? People who attack holocaust deniers (such as Nappa) with ridicule, and abuse, and unbacked up assertions, actually inadvertently make him (and his views) look more legitimate. I gotta hand it to Nappa, mad as his beliefs are he tries to convey them calmly and tries to back them up with what he considers to be evidence and logical arguments. If you saw two people having an argument on a topic you knew nothing about, one was trying to be calm and make points based on evidence, whilst one was just slinging mud and presenting no evidence, who would you think most likely to be right?

I dunno if people hate them per se. They have lost all credibility and accountability for a number of reasons.

1) The overwhelming evidence in the form of archeological sites, intelligence reports, eyewitness testimonies and legal documents that indicate the Nazi government orchestrated a machination to exterminate its political and religious enemies from within including Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, Poles, Russians, the retarded or infirmed, and other 'undesirables'.

2) that the people who perpetrate these lies do so as part of a malicious and generally anti simetic smear campaign.

3) the Holocaust deniers repeatedly use information which has been thoroughly debunked over the years but still continue to propagate it. A similar tactic isbeing used by creationists to discredit evolution, with predictable, terrible results.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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03-02-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
I would agree with Carlos. I don't necessarily think vilification is a correct word. But loss of credibility for sure. At the same time, there is of course the fallacy fallacy which is that just because someone is incorrect about one thing doesn't mean they're incorrect about them all. But at the same time, it's still a huge credibility drop for me as well.
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03-02-2013, 09:03 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
What Chas and Carlo said.

Also, I have found that a lot of people who think Holocaust denying is valid also tend to be the conspiracy types who say things like "Don't believe the gov't about 9/11! Atheists should be truthers because they go against the popular/gov't-sanctioned point of view!" No, that is NOT the reason most atheists are atheists, because it's "rebellious" or the unpopular point of view. I'm an atheist because that seems to fit in with how reality works, according to my observations. Likewise, I think they holocaust happened. Not because I blindly believe everything the gov't says, but because of the real life evidence and documentation in support of it. And because I've lived and studied in Germany and I've been to the museum in Berlin, I've been to other sites, I've talked to people who were involved in WWII on both sides.

As for the original question, yes I'd say the angrier reaction at this, in contrast to the moon landing, is emotional and does have to do with people being tortured and killed.
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03-02-2013, 09:10 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Recent and past events on the forum have left me with a question in my head that I cannot answer, maybe someone here can. Why does everyone hate holocaust deniers?
I don't hate the Holocaust Deniers as much as I despise them.

#1. They waste Time. Mental Bandwidth is to precious accept the waste of these guys.

#2 When they post on an Atheist Board, they give us Atheists a bad name.

That's about it.
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03-02-2013, 11:39 PM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
Question everything... until you are presented with evidence and facts.

Beyond that, you become a conspiracy theorist.

Ask yourself, as a thinking Atheist, would you continue to question the existence of a deity if multiple people were showing you photographic evidence from an era prior to photoshop in books published well before computers even? Would you deny the existence of a deity if ex-angels were still alive and telling you a story of how it was to serve under the deity? You'd be a little nuts to question it in light of all this evidence wouldn't you?

Now the issue of "vilifying" holocaust deniers...

Damn right I vilify them. How should I treat an ignorant person who is questioning a genocide of innocent people in the face of literally hundreds of facts and evidence? A single man persuaded a country to murder not hundreds, not thousands, not a million, but 11 million innocent people. There are war documents, photographic evidence, thousands of testimonies... hell, you can still visit some of these internment camps to this very day.

So for someone to question this atrocious piece of human history... you're damn right I'm going to vilify them. It's fucking offensive.

As for moon hoaxers... those are the laughable type. I place moon hoaxers on the same level as flat Earthers.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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03-02-2013, 11:46 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 11:50 PM by Nappa.)
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 11:39 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  How should I treat an ignorant person who is questioning a genocide of innocent people?
Like a human being.



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04-02-2013, 05:56 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
Holocaust deniers, moon landing deniers, flat earthers, people who think George Bush carried out 9/11, homeopathists. They're all in the same boat for me, I don't hate or try and vilify any of them. I pity them for being so incapable of effectively analysing the evidence.

I guess this thread has confirmed what I already suspected. People vilify holocaust deniers ahead of the others because of the gravity of the holocaust, it's an emotional reaction. I still don't think we should decide what we can and can't question (and how strongly) on how horrific the event in question was though so I don't think I'll ever agree with it.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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04-02-2013, 06:05 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 05:56 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Holocaust deniers, moon landing deniers, flat earthers, people who think George Bush carried out 9/11, homeopathists. They're all in the same boat for me, I don't hate or try and vilify any of them. I pity them for being so incapable of effectively analysing the evidence.

I guess this thread has confirmed what I already suspected. People vilify holocaust deniers ahead of the others because of the gravity of the holocaust, it's an emotional reaction. I still don't think we should decide what we can and can't question (and how strongly) on how horrific the event in question was though so I don't think I'll ever agree with it.

Yeah but, Hughsie, at one point questioning becomes an ridiculous exercise in futility. You know, I refuse to believe that America was discovered, much less - conquered by the Spanish. Nah, it never happened. Also - the Middle Ages were faked.

And the moon is made of cheese. Emental, to be precise. And anyone who can't see it, is a dumb fuck, a specimen, not a human being.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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04-02-2013, 06:15 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 06:05 AM)Vera Wrote:  Yeah but, Hughsie, at one point questioning becomes an ridiculous exercise in futility. You know, I refuse to believe that America was discovered, much less - conquered by the Spanish. Nah, it never happened. Also - the Middle Ages were faked.

And the moon is made of cheese. Emental, to be precise. And anyone who can't see it, is a dumb fuck, a specimen, not a human being.

Again, I wouldn't hate someone for believing any of those things, I'd just think them very stupid.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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04-02-2013, 06:15 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 05:56 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Holocaust deniers, moon landing deniers, flat earthers, people who think George Bush carried out 9/11, homeopathists. They're all in the same boat for me, I don't hate or try and vilify any of them. I pity them for being so incapable of effectively analysing the evidence.

I guess this thread has confirmed what I already suspected. People vilify holocaust deniers ahead of the others because of the gravity of the holocaust, it's an emotional reaction. I still don't think we should decide what we can and can't question (and how strongly) on how horrific the event in question was though so I don't think I'll ever agree with it.
It's not that no one can question it. It's that at some point every rational person should accept evidence as evidence, whether it fits their frame of reference or not. Otherwise, there would be no science at all.
And you keep talking about hate.
Hate? Really? Are you talking about actual hate? Or are you using this losely like the contemporary expression "haters" or "stop hating on me"?
Because hate is a very strong word, and I don't think I have ever hated anyone in my life, nor do I ever want to.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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