I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
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04-02-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 05:56 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Holocaust deniers, moon landing deniers, flat earthers, people who think George Bush carried out 9/11, homeopathists. They're all in the same boat for me, I don't hate or try and vilify any of them. I pity them for being so incapable of effectively analysing the evidence.

I guess this thread has confirmed what I already suspected. People vilify holocaust deniers ahead of the others because of the gravity of the holocaust, it's an emotional reaction. I still don't think we should decide what we can and can't question (and how strongly) on how horrific the event in question was though so I don't think I'll ever agree with it.
Hughsie you are by far my favorite, you were just like me. I used to believe that the holocaust happened and all of that, and I thought I'd never disagree with it. But I didn't hate those who put forth an argument for it. One day I hope you'll question this for yourself, and decide on your own who's side you think has the most evidence to support it.
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04-02-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 10:30 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 10:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am posting because your assumption that there are Holocaust deniers who aren't racist is questionable at best.
If there are, they are a tiny fraction of them.

People with a mind for conspiracy theories (and other associated bullshit) can latch on to practically any of them. Whether it be the moon landing, homeopathy, 9/11, or the holocaust. I would think there are two main groups within holocaust deniers; Neo-Nazis, and conspiracy theorists. I imagine the number of conspiracy theorists who disbelieve in the holocaust is higher than we realise as a large percentage probably don't make their views known for fear of being labelled racists.
And if they don't make their views known then they are not a problem.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 10:34 AM)Nappa Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 05:56 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Holocaust deniers, moon landing deniers, flat earthers, people who think George Bush carried out 9/11, homeopathists. They're all in the same boat for me, I don't hate or try and vilify any of them. I pity them for being so incapable of effectively analysing the evidence.

I guess this thread has confirmed what I already suspected. People vilify holocaust deniers ahead of the others because of the gravity of the holocaust, it's an emotional reaction. I still don't think we should decide what we can and can't question (and how strongly) on how horrific the event in question was though so I don't think I'll ever agree with it.
Hughsie you are by far my favorite, you were just like me. I used to believe that the holocaust happened and all of that, and I thought I'd never disagree with it. But I didn't hate those who put forth an argument for it. One day I hope you'll question this for yourself, and decide on your own who's side you think has the most evidence to support it.

I seriously doubt Hughsie is anything like you. Hughsie is a decent, idealistic person.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  I seriously doubt Hughsie is anything like you. Hughsie is a decent, idealistic person.
Oh so just because I don't believe in the holocaust makes me an evil murdering rapist psychopath?
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04-02-2013, 10:46 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 10:41 AM)Nappa Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  I seriously doubt Hughsie is anything like you. Hughsie is a decent, idealistic person.
Oh so just because I don't believe in the holocaust makes me an evil murdering rapist psychopath?

No, it makes you irrational, racist, or both.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 10:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 10:41 AM)Nappa Wrote:  Oh so just because I don't believe in the holocaust makes me an evil murdering rapist psychopath?

No, it makes you irrational, racist, or both.
And why must I be any of those?
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04-02-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Recent and past events on the forum have left me with a question in my head that I cannot answer, maybe someone here can. Why does everyone hate holocaust deniers?
Not a single person on here said that he hates holocaust deniers. Why are you making that up?

(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I'm being completely serious, I really don't understand it. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubts that the holocaust did happen, I just don't understand why we vilify people who are more sceptical.
You are confusing skepticism with denial. The stance of holocaust deniers is not that there is some doubt about whether or not the holocaust happened, but that it is certain that it did not happen.

(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I'm sure this is the point when someone is gonna say that it's a recognised historical event and it's stupid to question it, which is true. However, people on here regularly say you should question everything and not believe official accounts, why do they change their viewpoint regarding this topic? Another point here is that the moon landing is an even more recent and just as accepted event. Why do we accept people questioning that, yet not the holocaust? We even have a whole section dedicated to conspiracy theories. It's clear that we have no problem with people questioning recognised events, why is this one different?
Again, you are confusing questioning with flat-out denial.

(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  The next thing I imagine I may hear is something about the number of people who are witnesses who've testified that it happened. Wanna know what else huge numbers of people testify to having seen? God. We're atheists, we spend our lives dismissing eye-witness testimony as unreliable yet suddenly, on this topic, it becomes totally reliable all of a sudden, why?
The difference is simple, really. The perception of one group is biased because it is influenced by a pre-existing religious belief while the other one is not.

(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Someone is also bound to say that only anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazis question the holocaust. I doubt this. I'll accept that a high number of holocaust deniers are Neo-Nazis, but I highly doubt all are. To state that is like stating all moon-landing sceptics are communists. It's a pretty wild assertion. I think we should hear people out rather than judge them on their beliefs. After all, how many of us (especially the Americans here) criticise Christians for judging people simply for being atheists?
It would take only a single counter-example for this view to become null and void. Do you have one?

(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Finally, I'd like to also ask why we all become so Christian like when faced with a holocaust denier? We spend our time on the rest of the forum (for the most part) discussing things civilly and debating using facts and evidence to try and dismantle each other's arguments. Why when a holocaust denial thread pops up do we drop this approach and start name-calling, insulting, and demeaning the person? And why do we fail to attack their arguments with evidence (I know some people are here have done this, a lot haven't though)?
I suggest you to revisit the respective threads, because there were actually several people who addressed his arguments.

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04-02-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 11:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2013 12:39 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Finally, I'd like to also ask why we all become so Christian like when faced with a holocaust denier? We spend our time on the rest of the forum (for the most part) discussing things civilly and debating using facts and evidence to try and dismantle each other's arguments. Why when a holocaust denial thread pops up do we drop this approach and start name-calling, insulting, and demeaning the person? And why do we fail to attack their arguments with evidence (I know some people are here have done this, a lot haven't though)?
I suggest you to revisit the respective threads, because there were actually several people who addressed his arguments.
I wouldn't exactly call my thread debating material, I'd more call it a thread that was just meant to stir the pot but turned into a 15 pager because of people's emotional response over their rational one.
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04-02-2013, 11:45 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
(04-02-2013 11:19 AM)Nappa Wrote:  I wouldn't exactly call my thread debating material, I'd more call it a thread that was just meant to stir the pot but turned into a 15 pager because of people's emotional response over their rational one.

You have firmly incriminated yourself in the instigation of trolling activity.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-02-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: I have a feeling I'm about to be controversial .........
Do I hate conspiracy nuts? Not at all. I pity them.

What I do hate (well, I don't ever really hate, so let's leave it at dislike) is the ones who think they're smarter than everyone else, who brag, boast, cajole, and taunt about it, who belittle me and anyone else who doesn't share their particular lunacy, and generally come off as obnoxious, arrogant, unlikable, dickheads.

Those guys I dislike.

(Side note, "dickheads" is accepted by spellchecker - I didn't expect that one to get a pass)

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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