I have a question for Christians.
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02-05-2016, 05:06 PM
I have a question for Christians.
(02-05-2016 03:40 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  This might be counterintuitive, but as a translator let me tell you: a mistranslation can have huge effects on the meaning of words, sentences and even whole pieces of text.


A mistranslation might have huge effects or it might not, particularly in regards to any particular theology. But one thing for sure, is that the variety of interpolations, mistranslations, etc often noted in the footnotes of most modern bibles, has had very little effect on Christian theology as a whole.

Hardly any major theological disputes involve possible mistranslations, or interpolations.

Quote:Also because you're not considering the fact that these translations are sometimes of copied texts (so mistakes could be there too). So how can you know whether you can trust a text that has been around for 2000 years and that for most of those years the technology of "preserving information" was not up to today's standards?

And this is only considering unintentional mistakes. What if someone of those people deliberately changed something?

Well pretty much every bible is based on copies of copies of copies of copies. Discrepancies are generally noted when comparing copies. If one copy has particular passage, but another doesn't it intends to indicate interpolation. Abrupt changes in style, abrupt thematic shifts, etc often serve as a basis for arguments for interpolations, such as between authentic and inauthentic letters of Paul. There are conservative and more liberal interpretations of the text, etc...

The bible the NT has been combed through extensively by scholars, historians etc.., through every nook and cranny, to argue for possible mistranslations, interpolations, multiple sources, that there likely won't be any new arguments to offer.

But Christianity has been fairly resilient in light of all this.

And I think a religion built on a guy who spoke in variety of parables that confused his own disciples, is pretty comfortable with ambiguity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2016, 05:10 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(02-05-2016 03:28 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  The point of the Tower of Babel coming coming down was not that humans were getting powerful but that they were trying to get into Heaven by relying on each other and not listening to God.

I understand how the story is spun but the text says that god was concerned that if people were able to communicate easily they would be able to accomplish anything. Either way, he deliberately made it difficult for people to cooperate.

Quote:Basically they were trying to 'back door' the situation.

Good for them. The god of the bible is a sadistic fuck so getting around him is a good goal.

Quote:Eve ate from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil'. Before this they did not know evil, sin, and did not have a concept of one thing being better than another. All things were good and there just wasn't an evil nature, or mean streak.

So god set up a perfect world, created imperfect creatures, and placed the one thing that could bring evil into the world within easy reach and then went off and left them alone. That's incompetent at best.

Besides, if Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong before eating from the tree then they are blameless and there can be no "sin". The story makes no sense at all when taken literally.

Quote:I'm guessing that would look similar to animals, in the sense of evil not intelligence. For example, the majority of species don't kill their own kind, kill for pleasure, commit suicide.

Many animals kill their own kind and are not unknown to commit forms of suicide but I don't see where that is relevant. You seem to be invoking the naturalistic fallacy.

Quote:I think we already had the higher intelligence but when it came to violence, deception, cruelty, and things like that, it wasn't there until she ate that fruit.

Are you a biblical literalist? Young earth creationist?

Quote: For all I know the fruit had some special enzyme that activated those kinds of receptors and pathways in the brain. <and a whole lot more speculation>

In other words, if you can dream up any possible scenario that might explain your beliefs you are justified in holding them? That's not how evidence and critical thinking work.

Quote:When Jesus came and was crucified he created a new covenant, which made the old way obsolete. Now we only need to believe he died for our sins and repent (confess directly to God and ask for his help in not committing that sin again) for our sins as we commit them. I hope that helped.

Substitutionary atonement, as in the original animal sacrifices and the supposed crucifixion of Jesus, is an incredibly immoral concept. A god becoming human and sacrificing himself to himself in order to forgive is just ridiculous. A god needing a blood sacrifice is a god that is not worthy of respect, let alone worship. Believing that you get forgiveness because you believe that somebody else was tortured makes no sense at all.

We're just lucky there is no good evidence to believe that any of it is actually true.

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02-05-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(02-05-2016 03:28 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  The point of the Tower of Babel coming coming down was not that humans were getting powerful but that they were trying to get into Heaven by relying on each other and not listening to God. Basically they were trying to 'back door' the situation. Eve ate from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil'. Before this they did not know evil, sin, and did not have a concept of one thing being better than another. All things were good and there just wasn't an evil nature, or mean streak. I'm guessing that would look similar to animals, in the sense of evil not intelligence. For example, the majority of species don't kill their own kind, kill for pleasure, commit suicide. If you look at the cognition of apes, aside from the dominant male position, there really aren't instances of abuse, rape, hurting the young, especially pedophilia (there are no observations of a fully grown ape having sex with an ape that is not fully through puberty), or murder for pleasure. I think we already had the higher intelligence but when it came to violence, deception, cruelty, and things like that, it wasn't there until she ate that fruit. For all I know the fruit had some special enzyme that activated those kinds of receptors and pathways in the brain. So in that context, knowledge was not meant as intelligence but as a part of the brain that was activated. In certain dogs we see that if their brain swells it can cause pressure in the frontal lobe causing a violent nature similar to serial killers (this happens in some pit bulls giving them a bad rap). So, there is that capability in them, and if treated in the very beginning it can be prevented as well. Also, the man who was eaten by worms is in Acts chapter 12. They know now from the documentation of diseases in that area in the given time period that there were many cases of this type of parasitic worm, and now that we see the same worm in modern times. It has been medically documented how they stayed in the body for many years without notice, because of the protective sac, and that something as little as them reaching their max or a fall will burst the sack releasing the parasites. Most of the time that parasite is considered most lethal of the worm parasites since the host shows no symptoms until it is too late. However, modern doctors who examined patients looking for them could find them before the sack ruptured and could give the host medicine to kill the parasite. It was something that also happened in the time of Acts but they just didn't know how to describe it other than saying he was eaten by worms. I'm sure there were many things that were seen during that time that were not able to be described well. Color changing reptiles, a transparent water creature that looks like a large worm, horses with stripes, water creatures that could change color and spit a black substance into the water, a member of a species that is born with little or no color and red eyes... Even with our capabilities today we are still finding species never seen before and discovering species that used to exist that became extinct. There are many creatures that sound mythical based on description alone. Believing in God does not mean I know every single fish, mammal, bird, and dinosaur.
As for the three types of ways to be saved that was mentioned; There was a more complex way of getting to Heaven before Jesus came. People had to go to a priest and offer sacrifices. They would confess their sins and present the offering (usually an animal from their flock, which was a hardship since flocks were a source of income), the priest would go to God on their behalf, slaughter the animal, and usually burn it. They were also expected to follow the Commandments and the teaching handed down. When Jesus came and was crucified he created a new covenant, which made the old way obsolete. Now we only need to believe he died for our sins and repent (confess directly to God and ask for his help in not committing that sin again) for our sins as we commit them. I hope that helped.

Here's a tip, the Tower of Babel is every bit as true as little Red Riding Hood or Humpty Dumpty.

This is not an opinion, it is a fact backed up with archeological evidence.

Here's another pertinent fact- what someone's opinion about a fairy tale is, is basically worthless.

The blatant disregard that the book of Genesis has for any truth, shows itself to be a book of fairy tales, and the god concept the writers of Genesis are attempting to foist upon the gullible is shown to be just another one of their fairy tales.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-05-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(01-05-2016 07:00 AM)MatureMcLeod95 Wrote:  If God confused people's languages at the Tower of Babel, did he know that he would mess up his bible. I ask Christians all the time about errors in the bible, they always tell me it's a mistranslation. Who was the one who confused their languages in the first place.

God knew what all of the results of his actions would be, including errors that would occur in translating the Bible. God has also promised to preserve his word. Errors in translation are never serious enough to affect any major teaching of the Bible. And a lot of these "errors" are the result of failure to study the Bible carefully.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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03-05-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(01-05-2016 07:00 AM)MatureMcLeod95 Wrote:  If God confused people's languages at the Tower of Babel, did he know that he would mess up his bible. I ask Christians all the time about errors in the bible, they always tell me it's a mistranslation. Who was the one who confused their languages in the first place.

Yes, God knew that mortals are capable to mess with His word.

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03-05-2016, 10:38 AM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(02-05-2016 05:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A mistranslation might have huge effects or it might not, particularly in regards to any particular theology. But one thing for sure, is that the variety of interpolations, mistranslations, etc often noted in the footnotes of most modern bibles, has had very little effect on Christian theology as a whole.

Hardly any major theological disputes involve possible mistranslations, or interpolations.

How would you know that? You're assuming there was no effect, but you have no way of knowing that for sure.

(02-05-2016 05:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well pretty much every bible is based on copies of copies of copies of copies. Discrepancies are generally noted when comparing copies. If one copy has particular passage, but another doesn't it intends to indicate interpolation. Abrupt changes in style, abrupt thematic shifts, etc often serve as a basis for arguments for interpolations, such as between authentic and inauthentic letters of Paul. There are conservative and more liberal interpretations of the text, etc...

The bible the NT has been combed through extensively by scholars, historians etc.., through every nook and cranny, to argue for possible mistranslations, interpolations, multiple sources, that there likely won't be any new arguments to offer.

But Christianity has been fairly resilient in light of all this.

And I think a religion built on a guy who spoke in variety of parables that confused his own disciples, is pretty comfortable with ambiguity.

I don't find that to be a point in favor, honestly.

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03-05-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(02-05-2016 11:06 AM)MatureMcLeod95 Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 07:48 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm not familiar with this argument. Can you explain it to me?

The Tower of Babel was when man supposedly wanted to create a tower towards heaven. God came down and confused their languages in order to stop them. Whenever I ask someone about a mistake in the bible, they always tell me since the bible has been translated so many times that they are conflicts within the pages. For example; Job 39:9-12 in the KIng James Version says that unicorns exists, but theists say these are oxen. Theist also believe that the bible is perfect, which is kinda silly when even they admit they are translation errors. And according to the bible, God was the one that confused their languages in the first place. So an omnipotent, omniscient being should have known he would have messed up his bible. Does this make it clear? Also, if you want to prove to yourself that God is NOT omnipotent read Judges 1:19. If you want to prove to yourself that God is NOT omniscient, read 1 Kings 7:23 of the King James Version.

Yes, I think you've explained your question. Thanks.
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03-05-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 10:38 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
Quote:Hardly any major theological disputes involve possible mistranslations, or interpolations.

How would you know that? You're assuming there was no effect, but you have no way of knowing that for sure.

Because it hasn't lol. Numerous mistranslations, interpolations, etc... have been pointed out, in many cases noted in the footnotes of people's bible's. And has resulted in no discernible change in Christianity as a whole. It's been met with a collective shrug.

(02-05-2016 05:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't find that to be a point in favor, honestly.

Maybe, maybe not, but the fact of the matter is that Christianity, has always been a rather malleable religion, highly adaptable to variety of situations, it's appeal has always been quite diverse in this regard. Several years from now China will likely house the largest Christian population in the world, for a religion formed two-thousands years ago by some jewish goat herders that's not bad.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-05-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 12:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 10:38 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  How would you know that? You're assuming there was no effect, but you have no way of knowing that for sure.

Because it hasn't lol. Numerous mistranslations, interpolations, etc... have been pointed out, in many cases noted in the footnotes of people's bible's. And has resulted in no discernible change in Christianity as a whole. It's been met with a collective shrug.

(02-05-2016 05:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't find that to be a point in favor, honestly.

Maybe, maybe not, but the fact of the matter is that Christianity, has always been a rather malleable religion, highly adaptable to variety of situations, it's appeal has always been quite diverse in this regard. Several years from now China will likely house the largest Christian population in the world, for a religion formed two-thousands years ago by some jewish goat herders that's not bad.

Huh.. do you ignore how Christianity has constantly evolved on movements like the reformation and has total contrasting views from some domination bases? The notions of its basis are documented so frequently though out history when some mass influence shifts the view from early Aquinas to John Edwards.

Sure misquoted bits like the title of carpenter being a wood worker when likely in that era a person like Jesus would of been a stone craftsman is entirely inconsequential.

But the "virgin" translation of contrasting just it meaning young maiden has created huge implications in what actually things mean and validity of sticking to how catholicism thinks that's so important.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-05-2016, 02:04 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2016 02:09 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 01:30 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Huh.. do you ignore how Christianity has constantly evolved on movements like the reformation and has total contrasting views from some domination bases? The notions of its basis are documented so frequently though out history when some mass influence shifts the view from early Aquinas to John Edwards.

Christianity has had a considerable history of theological disputes, bodies of christians with competing interpretations, this wasn't the argument.

The argument was about the influence of interpolations and mistranslations on these disputes, not (interpretations).

Quote:But the "virgin" translation of contrasting just it meaning young maiden has created huge implications in what actually things mean and validity of sticking to how catholicism thinks that's so important

The question of the translation of the term virgin, has led to little unrest in Christian circles. It tends to be atheists who make a bigger deal out of it than theists, who by in large have responded with indifference.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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