I have a question for Christians.
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03-05-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 02:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 01:30 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Huh.. do you ignore how Christianity has constantly evolved on movements like the reformation and has total contrasting views from some domination bases? The notions of its basis are documented so frequently though out history when some mass influence shifts the view from early Aquinas to John Edwards.

Christianity has had a considerable history of theological disputes, bodies of christians with competing interpretations, this wasn't the argument.

The argument was about the influence of interpolations and mistranslations on these disputes, not (interpretations).

Quote:But the "virgin" translation of contrasting just it meaning young maiden has created huge implications in what actually things mean and validity of sticking to how catholicism thinks that's so important

The question of the translation of the term virgin, has led to little unrest in Christian circles. It tends to be atheists who make a bigger deal out of it than theists, who by in large have responded with indifference.
Odd statements.. when were they though as there are atheist who ceased bring theist from such understanding discovers. Which supposed category do they fit under. I guess they stopped shrugging.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-05-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 02:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 01:30 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Huh.. do you ignore how Christianity has constantly evolved on movements like the reformation and has total contrasting views from some domination bases? The notions of its basis are documented so frequently though out history when some mass influence shifts the view from early Aquinas to John Edwards.

Christianity has had a considerable history of theological disputes, bodies of christians with competing interpretations, this wasn't the argument.

The argument was about the influence of interpolations and mistranslations on these disputes, not (interpretations).

Quote:But the "virgin" translation of contrasting just it meaning young maiden has created huge implications in what actually things mean and validity of sticking to how catholicism thinks that's so important

The question of the translation of the term virgin, has led to little unrest in Christian circles. It tends to be atheists who make a bigger deal out of it than theists, who by in large have responded with indifference.

I think you're missing the point. The supposition that Jesus was magically born of a virgin is a big part of the supposition that he is divine, rather than just some itinerant preacher. That makes a huge difference. If he's just another sage, you don't have a religion anymore. Christianity is entirely based on the premise that Jesus was God, and the translation of "young woman" as "virgin" has a lot to do with building the myth that leads to that premise.
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03-05-2016, 02:42 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 02:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think you're missing the point. The supposition that Jesus was magically born of a virgin is a big part of the supposition that he is divine, rather than just some itinerant preacher. That makes a huge difference. If he's just another sage, you don't have a religion anymore. Christianity is entirely based on the premise that Jesus was God, and the translation of "young woman" as "virgin" has a lot to do with building the myth that leads to that premise.

There's two points to be made here.

I personally don't care whether Jesus was a virgin or not. It should also be noted that outside of two of the Gospels, none of other NT writers seem to have suggested or paid any importance to whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin. His divinity as they saw it, had no real dependence on him being born of a virgin.

But it is true that for many Christians if the virgin birth wasn't true, that might be a tough pill to swallow. I'm just saying that the possible mistranslation issues here with the word virgin, has caused little anxiety for this group. It's cast very little doubt on their belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, even while observant of the mistranslation argument.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-05-2016, 03:10 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 02:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 02:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think you're missing the point. The supposition that Jesus was magically born of a virgin is a big part of the supposition that he is divine, rather than just some itinerant preacher. That makes a huge difference. If he's just another sage, you don't have a religion anymore. Christianity is entirely based on the premise that Jesus was God, and the translation of "young woman" as "virgin" has a lot to do with building the myth that leads to that premise.

There's two points to be made here.

I personally don't care whether Jesus was a virgin or not. It should also be noted that outside of two of the Gospels, none of other NT writers seem to have suggested or paid any importance to whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin. His divinity as they saw it, had no real dependence on him being born of a virgin.

But it is true that for many Christians if the virgin birth wasn't true, that might be a tough pill to swallow. I'm just saying that the possible mistranslation issues here with the word virgin, has caused little anxiety for this group. It's cast very little doubt on their belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, even while observant of the mistranslation argument.
Again... what is "this group" are you blanketing every Christian of all domination and every scripture/belief level.

It would have and has more impact to people of domination like catholicism where that's significant. I know of those who remained non dominational but left catholicism when finding out data like that of the misnomers of their historical translation and fudged claims.

There's no context to who you express to be categorizing in the categories you build up.

There is no magical one piece of info suddenly changing anyone's mind about things, all of that happens gradually and shrugging irrelevance or denial does for some people evolve to second looks.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-05-2016, 03:27 PM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 02:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 02:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think you're missing the point. The supposition that Jesus was magically born of a virgin is a big part of the supposition that he is divine, rather than just some itinerant preacher. That makes a huge difference. If he's just another sage, you don't have a religion anymore. Christianity is entirely based on the premise that Jesus was God, and the translation of "young woman" as "virgin" has a lot to do with building the myth that leads to that premise.

There's two points to be made here.

I personally don't care whether Jesus was a virgin or not. It should also be noted that outside of two of the Gospels, none of other NT writers seem to have suggested or paid any importance to whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin. His divinity as they saw it, had no real dependence on him being born of a virgin.

But it is true that for many Christians if the virgin birth wasn't true, that might be a tough pill to swallow. I'm just saying that the possible mistranslation issues here with the word virgin, has caused little anxiety for this group. It's cast very little doubt on their belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, even while observant of the mistranslation argument.

Ah, so you "personally don't care". A little while ago, you were claiming that Christians in general don't care. I think a lot of them do. You don't speak for all Christians any more than I speak for all atheists.

I think I can speak for Catholics (the largest single denomination of Christians), though -- I used to be one, and the virgin birth is a dogma of Catholicism. All Catholics are required to accept it.
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04-05-2016, 04:21 AM
I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 03:27 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 02:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's two points to be made here.

I personally don't care whether Jesus was a virgin or not. It should also be noted that outside of two of the Gospels, none of other NT writers seem to have suggested or paid any importance to whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin. His divinity as they saw it, had no real dependence on him being born of a virgin.

But it is true that for many Christians if the virgin birth wasn't true, that might be a tough pill to swallow. I'm just saying that the possible mistranslation issues here with the word virgin, has caused little anxiety for this group. It's cast very little doubt on their belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, even while observant of the mistranslation argument.

Ah, so you "personally don't care". A little while ago, you were claiming that Christians in general don't care. I think a lot of them do. You don't speak for all Christians any more than I speak for all atheists.

I think I can speak for Catholics (the largest single denomination of Christians), though -- I used to be one, and the virgin birth is a dogma of Catholicism. All Catholics are required to accept it.


I was previously speaking of Christians in general, but to be more clear.

Christians in general care whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin. Though I don't.

Christians in general don't care much whether the word Almah is more appropriately translated in Isaiah as young girl or exclusively a Virgin. It's not a major controversy in Christian circles.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-05-2016, 05:08 AM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
One thing I find interesting is that if Mary was a virgin, Jesus could not have been the messiah.
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05-05-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: I have a question for Christians.
(03-05-2016 12:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Because it hasn't lol. Numerous mistranslations, interpolations, etc... have been pointed out, in many cases noted in the footnotes of people's bible's. And has resulted in no discernible change in Christianity as a whole. It's been met with a collective shrug.

That's the changes we might know. How do you expect to know of any "problem" in 2000 years? Come on.

(02-05-2016 05:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Maybe, maybe not, but the fact of the matter is that Christianity, has always been a rather malleable religion, highly adaptable to variety of situations, it's appeal has always been quite diverse in this regard. Several years from now China will likely house the largest Christian population in the world, for a religion formed two-thousands years ago by some jewish goat herders that's not bad.

Religions that are not "adaptable" die off. And Christianity is not the only one that "adapted". I still don't see why that would make it special or good in any way.

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