I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
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19-02-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:44 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:41 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Yes. Also, if you were never taught about hell, how would you even know it was a thing? The only reason you know about hell is because somebody told you about it. That should show you right there that hell is a man-made idea.

do you think though that so many people who had them are wrong even though they say it felt more real than real life?

I've had dreams where I woke up and was confused for several minutes before I realised it wasn't real. Same shit here. Why would I think people's notoriously unreliable brain-farts would be evidence of anything, let alone something so esoteric as an invisible realm where dead people go to be punished for failing to believe fantasies about some megalomaniac deity?

I had a dream the other night - I've been fiddling for days with a maths problem, and I dreamed the solution. It was simple, it was perfect. Oddly enough I remembered the gist of the dream-solution when I woke up, and immediately tried it out. It didn't work. So why if for something that simple my own brain is unreliable should I trust other people's silly dreams?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-02-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:44 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:41 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Yes. Also, if you were never taught about hell, how would you even know it was a thing? The only reason you know about hell is because somebody told you about it. That should show you right there that hell is a man-made idea.

do you think though that so many people who had them are wrong even though they say it felt more real than real life?

I don't think they're wrong in the sense that their brains produced that imagery based on their cultural upbringing and religious belief. The brain is still active during an NDE and still capable of creating imagery. The imagery could be horrific in some cases. The body is under a lot of stress and was more than likely administered a drug(s). If the imagery produced by the brain was horrific, the person may make a connection between NDE and horrific imagery which they then equate to hell due to their cultural upbringing and religious belief.
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19-02-2017, 11:54 PM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
Even if this did somehow prove hell is real, so what?

"You really better start kissing god's arse, or you'll be tortured!"

No thanks, fuck off. It would just be more evidence that God is an evil prick, if we pretended that the biblical character existed.

And yeah, they are probably reporting what they sincerely believed happened. It doesn't mean it actually happened.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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19-02-2017, 11:58 PM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
There's a really good book called The Soul Fallacy by Julien Musolino. I highly recommend reading it.
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20-02-2017, 12:01 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:22 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:19 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Childhood indoctrination and/or many years of church attendance, most likely.

although there are no officially documented cases, do you think it is possible that people of other faiths would see gods from their religion in NDEs?

Actually, I was curious about this some time ago and looked into it. It turns out that what one experiences is heavily influenced by the culture one comes from. For instance I read that in India, people find themselves in a bureaucratic office where a harried person tells the person that they are not the right one they want and to go back. Japanese people often find themselves walking by a river with flowering trees along the bank. That should really tell you something about the nature of these experiences.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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20-02-2017, 12:03 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:40 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:30 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Or people just make shit up? It sells books and gets people on TV.

Let me ask you this, if the theory of a brain deprived of oxygen is proved to be false, would you still believe NDEs are bullshit, or would you believe them?

There would still be no evidence that any of it was real.

I'm sure we all do believe that they believe it was real. It's just that the mind is an unreliable source of information, so anything extremely unusual that can't be verified should be treated as suspect.

Christians are never bothered that a Muslim having a NDE about Muhammad or whatever "is true" and so they should convert. People just pick out things that reaffirm their own beliefs.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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20-02-2017, 12:16 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 12:20 AM by dancefortwo.)
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:27 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:25 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Well, personally I think it's just a myth that church authorities invented so that they could frighten people into obedience. I realized that when I was very young, and so when various believers later tried to use hell to scare me, it bounced right off. If I got upset with them, it was because I thought it rude to threaten people like that.

I come from a religious background, and I am afraid of hell. I thought that it seemed to be made up, but all of these NDEs seem to suggest that it exists. There was also a recent study which claimed that 30 people tested who had an NDE had higher oxygen levels in their brain than people who did not, making the whole oxygen theory potentially problematic, so now I am afraid if we don't have an explanation

People from different cultures and religions tend to see their version of heaven and hell. American Indians brought up in a more isolated environment tend to see mountain spirits and nature. NDE's can be induced by centrifuge machines that spin pilots and astronauts around at a high speed. It pulls the blood away from key parts of the brain and astronauts have out of body experiences and NDE's.

One other thing, hell doesn't exist. It's a made up myth.

Read Oliver Sacks book on Hallucinations.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-02-2017, 12:26 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
We don't even need an explanation. "It magically being true" isn't the default position.

The default position is that we don't know exactly what happened. Saying "It's true because you can't prove it isn't" is called the argument from ignorance fallacy.

I pose this question to anyone who thinks NDEs could be anything more than fantasy:

People claim the brain is supposedly "dead" while it has these experiences (it's not, but I'll humour them). So that means, according to them, that the consciousness then exists independently of the brain/body while this happens. If it has then moved on to some other place like hell, why exactly does it come back again when the person "is alive again"? Is there a time limit? Is it like the five second rule for eating things you dropped on the floor?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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20-02-2017, 01:39 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
NDEs are supposedly being experienced by the human "soul" rather than the physical body yet every aspect of an NDE experience exactly matches what a physical human body would produce as experience. Take sight. The human visual field of view is equivalent to about a 50mm lens on most SLR cameras, and is produced by both our eyes being more or less parallel to an axis normal to our face. What does a bird, horse or fish see with their eyes 180 degrees apart - certainly nothing like the human field of view. No NDE ever reports a visual field of view different from what the human field of view perceives, yet, since the experience is purportedly ex-corporeal the field of view should be different - probably unrestricted and encompassing all 360 degrees of a surrounding sphere, not confined to a narrow disk of our actual field of view. And it should also enable perception beyond the range of visible light, since the limits of the human visual apparatus are no longer inhibiting the view.

Likewise hearing is experienced exactly as human beings process sound - no unfamiliar pitches that should be perceptible in the upper or lower wavelengths (such as dog-whistle ranges) are reported.

Until an NDE report features experiences utterly alien in terms of sensory perception, they cannot be regarded as anything other than a still functioning human body continuing to experience existence through its familiar sensory mechanisms - there is no reason to suppose otherwise.

As to whether hell exists, the concept is so childish and absurd it can be disregarded as dismissively as we disregard email spam. The "hells" we face on earth are more daunting and terrifying and should command our full attention in diminishing them and their effects - to invest mental energy worrying about a biblical hell only leaves the real "hells" more intact.
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20-02-2017, 02:02 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
Again with this nonsense? There is no evidence for god, hell or fairies existing and NDS are just hallucinations.

About low oxygen level - you conveniently forgot to post link to said study.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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