I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
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20-02-2017, 03:15 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(20-02-2017 02:54 AM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 02:52 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, I read it. You're bashing the scientific explanations. That goes no further towards establishing the events described by the person really happened. If you want to just believe it because it aligns with what you already believe, without requiring any evidence, that's up to you.

I don't give a monkeys how real it felt to them. I'm not doubting their sincerity,

I think that what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I think it makes a whole lot more sense than what believers say. It's just that there are so many people who challenge science behind it and I am a little nervous in case I am wrong because I was brought up in the faith and still attend church and so it is hard to shake off these fears. I know that what you are saying is very intelligent and is rational.

There also many people who thinks that vaccines cause autism. It's possible that current scientific explanations are wrong but this does not make religious "explanations" true; science being wrong about what causes NDE doesn't mean that religion is right.

Also your fear is just result of your upbringing - in times past and different location you would be afraid of not ending in Valhalla. In times past but in the same location you would be afraid of going against Svetovid wishes. Now you fear Hell and another bunch of people who claim to speak for something called god.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-02-2017, 03:15 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(20-02-2017 03:03 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Thank you Smile

Of course, people "challenge" science all the time. Anyone can write some bollocks on the Internet. If they have a genuine objection, then they'd take it to reputable scientific journals to be peer reviewed. If they don't, then you can assume it is hogwash.

If we don't have a scientific explanation, the next step is to continue to look for a scientific explanation. People who jump to their own pet conclusions are, like I say, employing the argument from ignorance. "You can't prove it isn't the case, so it is." I have a video about why this is not a good argument. It's best to look for positive evidence for a claim, not negative evidence for counter claims.

I understand the fear, because that's what religions work with. It's all they have, because none of it is based on reality. If there's some maniac sending people to hell, we're all screwed. We may as well forget about it and enjoy what little time we have before that happens. But since there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case, we can just ignore it anyhow.






Thank you! That was a great video and it made a lot of sense. I totally agree with it. I looked through your channel and you have many interesting videos. You will be receiving a new subscriber shortly Smile
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20-02-2017, 03:18 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
I appreciate that very much, thank you Smile

I'm glad the video helped! It's such an easy mental trap to fall into. It's amazing how many people get tricked by this, and other logical fallacies. I still have to police my own thinking, and override my "intuition" when I spot it making such mistakes.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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20-02-2017, 04:33 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 04:44 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:18 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:16 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  What the hell is it with all the near death shit lately?

Dodgy

It's scary because it could mean there is hell Weeping

Yeah, just like having dreams about the Big Bad Wolf could mean the big bad wolf is real. Get help, and stop posting your shit here. How many of these pieces of crap are you gonna post here ? So you're scared. It's not our problem, and NDEs prove nothing .... clearly you've read NONE of the responses you've gotten, and NOTHING is going to change you're mind. If you're afraid of hell, then fucking go convert, and live in fear. Who cares. We don't. Buh bye.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-02-2017, 05:03 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(20-02-2017 02:41 AM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  But what we get are vivid, organized, transformational experiences—people report that their NDEs feel “more real than real,” they feel free, that they understand the universe at a deep level, and have never been happier.
Ketamine? Psylocibin? Endorphines?
They (think they) understand the universe at a deep level? Why cant they communicate this once they are "alive" again?

(20-02-2017 02:41 AM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  Interestingly, when the brain is close to death, there is a higher incidence of cognitive enhancement—the mind feels unfettered and able to process more thoughts than usual.
Yes they maybe think they are able to process more thoughts...
Experiments with various drugs were made ( i am talking about scientific experiments! Tongue ) where people have reported some "deep knowledge" and stuff. For example somebody took LSD and reported to have admired a picture on the wall for a short time....he was later told to have stood and stared at the picture for a whole hour.
Other people (taking psychoactive substances) reported to have looked at bananas and thought they suddenly understood thet universe. After they were sober again they were told that all they were talking during their *experience* was nonsense.

Have you ever thought about the effect of opiates and how powerful they are and then about endorphines and how much more potent they are? So somebody reporting that everything seemed "more real than real" doesnt impress me when i think of (artificial) psychocative substances and how much more potent maybe substances are that our own body can produce.

I am not impressed at all by all this NDE nonsense. Not until somebody shows me something that can not be easily explained by some very common and more or less well known mechanism.
Show me a fundamentalist muslim having a NDE about the christian god, or an evangelical having an NDE about Muhammad, then i am maybe impressed. Show me aperson who is (almost) dead and can see stuff happening thousands of miles away, and please no shit like "i saw the sun rising", because that happens everywhere, all the time.

But most important, why near death? Near death still equals alive. Why do we have connections to god only then? Why only 1 min before we die (clinically speaking)? Why not 2? or 5? or 10? What makes this phase of life so special that we suddenly have a connection to god?
Show me someone who was indeed, dead, a few days, who showed clear signs of decomposition (just to rule out any form of statis with 1 heartbeat per hour or so), then i am impressed.

(20-02-2017 02:41 AM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  That we would find enhanced cognition under deprived conditions for the brain does not square with our understanding of brain function."
Indeed, but we are only starting to understand how the brain works and how our mind is related to this (as maybe being an emergent property).
So, the correct answer to such propositions, when you actually dont know enough to make a sound and justified conclusion, is not to make shit up, but to say:

I dont fucking know

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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20-02-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
The whole story is absolute rubbish, and is nothing more than poorly-written science fiction. I'm guessing that its alleged author, Don Brubaker, doesn't even exist. It's just a pen-name for some literary wannabe trying to make a quick buck. Only problem with that is that the book "Absent from the Body: One Man's Clinical Death, a Journey Through Heaven and Hell" is currently selling on Amazon for $0.01 which is hardly gonna make anybody rich LOL.

A Google search reveals only one, non-accredited photo of "Brubaker", and not even the tiniest bit of biographical information. Ergo; he doesn't exist.

The story is hosted on a whack-job website called http://www.near-death.com along with another random collection of bullshit stories and fairy tales. Its administrator is also a totally unknown person by the name of Kevin Williams (how imaginative!) so I'm guessing all these NDE-type sites are run as financial frauds by a handful of anonymous grifters.

—Let's face it; nobody could read this story from the unknown "Brubaker" and maintain a straight face.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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20-02-2017, 06:36 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(20-02-2017 02:41 AM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  It essentially says "when the brain is out of oxygen, it starts firing rapidly in a disorganized fashion—it’s not working properly. From our knowledge of the brain, we would not expect organized experience in this state, but a jumble perhaps akin to what one might find in seizures or in mental illness—other examples of the brain not working correctly.

But what we get are vivid, organized, transformational experiences—people report that their NDEs feel “more real than real,” they feel free, that they understand the universe at a deep level, and have never been happier. This can happen both when the brain is not in immediate danger, and when it’s under severe duress because of a life-threatening situation.

We are adept at taking confusing data and weaving a story to explain it all. Our memories are malleable and change often. The self-reported feelings of people about a traumatic experience they underwent are worth exactly nothing in determining what is actually real except, perhaps, as insights into how the brain functions.

When an NDE report includes verifiable information that person could not have known or guessed it might be worth investigation. When it involves vague Chopra-esque claims of peace and harmony or warnings of hell it's far more likely to just be dream imagery. It may be of value to psychologists and neuroscientists but it tells us nothing about anything existent.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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20-02-2017, 06:41 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(20-02-2017 06:34 AM)SYZ Wrote:  The whole story is absolute rubbish, and is nothing more than poorly-written science fiction. I'm guessing that its alleged author, Don Brubaker, doesn't even exist. It's just a pen-name for some literary wannabe trying to make a quick buck. Only problem with that is that the book "Absent from the Body: One Man's Clinical Death, a Journey Through Heaven and Hell" is currently selling on Amazon for $0.01 which is hardly gonna make anybody rich LOL.

A Google search reveals only one, non-accredited photo of "Brubaker", and not even the tiniest bit of biographical information. Ergo; he doesn't exist.

The story is hosted on a whack-job website called http://www.near-death.com along with another random collection of bullshit stories and fairy tales. Its administrator is also a totally unknown person by the name of Kevin Williams (how imaginative!) so I'm guessing all these NDE-type sites are run as financial frauds by a handful of anonymous grifters.

—Let's face it; nobody could read this story from the unknown "Brubaker" and maintain a straight face.

Wonder if all these NDE threads on atheist forums and innocent links dropped in response to requests for citations might be Brubaker et al attempting to drum up a bit of interest?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-02-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
(19-02-2017 11:27 PM)Mirek-Polska Wrote:  I come from a religious background, and I am afraid of hell.

Okay... the place called "hell" imagined by theists doesn't actually exist. Therefore, you have no need to fear going there when you die; you won't.

Quote:I thought that it seemed to be made up, but all of these NDEs seem to suggest that it exists.

The actuality of these so-called NDEs don't have any proven, scientific validity. They're most likely confabulations, or even straight-out lies by apologetics trying to prove a point.

Quote:There was also a recent study which claimed that 30 people tested who had an NDE had higher oxygen levels in their brain than people who did not [...]

Citation please.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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20-02-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: I have one question I would love for the atheists to answer!!!!!!!
Mirek,

It didn't sound alarm bells in your head on the website you read (and quoted) when it said, "We should expect to find _______" in a malfunctioning brain?

Aside from the vast oversimplification of neurology--since we know some parts of the brain can shut down while others, especially core systems, keep operating and also that some can "cross-wire" and partially malfunction while still performing their core functions and/or getting information from other systems that are not malfunctioning--in describing what we "should expect" to find, it's just flat wrong.

We don't know enough about neuroscience to say what the brain "should" do in that circumstance; that's why we're studying it. However, what we do already know about the brain (as I described above) tells us that the author of that story doesn't have a damned clue what he's talking about.

One easy example, to which I like to refer, is the "God Helmet" experiment, in which a single section of the brain is triggered artificially to "malfunction" or short-circuit by changing the blood-flow via magnets in the helmet... a brain process that had been observed in people who were in intense states of meditation or prayer. They were able to replicate, just by changing the blood flow and causing the brain to short-circuit that one section, all of the metaphysical experiences (such as sensing an angelic/godly presence, feeling "oneness with the universe", et cetera) the people reported after intense prayer and meditation.

What formerly seemed to have a metaphysical/magical explanation turned out to be something quite natural.

The same is true with NDEs. We know many of the processes, such as the US Air Force studies cited by Dancefortwo, because pilots in combat started having NDEs in-flight, since the brain was under stresses that tricked it into reacting as if it was dying, and we needed to understand why. There's no magic, here. Period. It's a brain process. The only people trying to convince you that magic is a better explanation than nature are those people who stand to gain-- either religiously or financially, or both-- from your credulity.

Finally, you should ask why are they seeing hell at all. We KNOW that hell was a made-up concept, and is based on adapted pagan ideas that Christianity (specifically, Catholicism) adopted, and poor translations of the Bible. It's not real, and even Christian scholars who have looked at the issue with an unbiased eye admit this.

Since it's just a malfunctioning brain producing images based on what cultural inputs it carries, and we know that hell is a made-up concept that wasn't in the original Bible, then why are they seeing hell at all? (Being an atheist and seeing hell is irrelevant, by the way, since they still get fed all those cultural inputs just by growing up in a Christianity-dominated society.) And why don't people who've never been exposed to Christian cultural inputs see the Christian hell?

In short, you are terrified because you have been programmed to be terrified... because it suits the agenda of the programmers. Stop looking at the websites of those people with an agenda to push this magic-story, and start looking at peer-reviewed, serious examinations into the question, as many here have tried to suggest.

I hope this helps. Good luck! Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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