I have proof science is bad?
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05-09-2014, 04:22 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(04-09-2014 07:00 AM)victormarte Wrote:  Hey all, new user and extreme atheist here.

I love having conversations with theists and trying to advance my knowledge and arguments. One argument that was made was interesting. It wasn't the "hitler, pol pot and others were atheists",

*It was "Science helped promote slavery and other issues in our society, there is a lot of fraud despite peer revision."

I responded that the bible doesn't change and science evolves through new knowledge. However, at the same time, religion has gotten better when you look throughout history. Sure there are still crazy issues, but you get the point.

How would you respond to this argument?

Science didnt promote slavery. The pseudoscience of racial "science" promoted slavery. Also there was a theological idea that was also pro-slavery.
religion only gets better when it adopts secular values. Matt Dillahunty calls them "stealth secularists"
As for fraud, there isnt much, but for the little there is, then that isn't the fault of science, that is the fault of the imperfect institutions. And what eventually corrects those mistakes/lies?
You got it, real science.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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05-09-2014, 04:51 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(04-09-2014 07:00 AM)victormarte Wrote:  Hey all, new user and extreme atheist here.

I love having conversations with theists and trying to advance my knowledge and arguments. One argument that was made was interesting. It wasn't the "hitler, pol pot and others were atheists",

*It was "Science helped promote slavery and other issues in our society, there is a lot of fraud despite peer revision."

I responded that the bible doesn't change and science evolves through new knowledge. However, at the same time, religion has gotten better when you look throughout history. Sure there are still crazy issues, but you get the point.

How would you respond to this argument?

My response?

On Slavery: Well, no; science didn't promote slavery; the primary justifications were supplied by religious texts, particularly the Bible and the Qur'an, depending on whether you were in the 'Christendom' or 'Islamic' spheres of the world at the time.

I might concede that science, through the slow development of superior ships, did make the slave trade a tad more efficient though; but that was more a side-effect than anything and not something you can blame it on.

As for the fraud: Sure; there have been some instances of scientific fraud, even with the peer review process, but they are actually few and far between and when they do occur the fraudsters are quickly rooted out due to that nasty habit scientists have of forever trying to ruin other scientists work by testing it. You'd be a fool to expect a human process without faults, but this is the best we've got and it constantly gets better.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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05-09-2014, 06:45 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
Tell him that if science is bad, then he needs to make sure that if he or another fellow Christian gets sick or injured, then medical treatment is out of the question, so stay away from doctors and hospitals. You wouldn't want to take advantage of all the advancements that have been made in the medical field due to science. If he does, then he's following the path to evil. He needs to pray to his invisible sky daddy for healing. After all, he is omnipotent, so he has the power to do anything. So why would he not heal a Christian asking for his help?

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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05-09-2014, 07:02 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(04-09-2014 12:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Is a knife bad because it can be used to end someone's life? Is a knife good because it can be used to save someone's life?

The scientific method, much like a knife, is an amoral tool that can be used for a variety of purposes.

try explaining that to the misguided (we all know who I'm talking about )
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05-09-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(04-09-2014 08:47 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Welcome.

I don't know why all my spidy-troll-senses perked up when I read your OP.

Mine too.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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05-09-2014, 08:48 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
Hehehe... extreme atheist... "I don't believe in God very very very hard".... Man, if there was a competition for not believing in God I'd win it. The others would be nowhere... You think *you* don't believe in God? Wait 'til I show you the extent of my lack of belief in God.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-09-2014, 09:24 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 08:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hehehe... extreme atheist... "I don't believe in God very very very hard".... Man, if there was a competition for not believing in God I'd win it. The others would be nowhere... You think *you* don't believe in God? Wait 'til I show you the extent of my lack of belief in God.

Nuh uh - I have way less belief in a nonexistent thing than you!

In fact, I don't believe so much, that my lack of belief is nonexistent! Blink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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05-09-2014, 09:44 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 09:24 AM)kim Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 08:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hehehe... extreme atheist... "I don't believe in God very very very hard".... Man, if there was a competition for not believing in God I'd win it. The others would be nowhere... You think *you* don't believe in God? Wait 'til I show you the extent of my lack of belief in God.

Nuh uh - I have way less belief in a nonexistent thing than you!

In fact, I don't believe so much, that my lack of belief is nonexistent! Blink

Kim, I'll show you the... uh... hehe... *extent*... of my lack of belief in a God any time Wink

Big Grin




Bechased

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-09-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(04-09-2014 12:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 12:01 PM)victormarte Wrote:  I appreciate your responses. I am currently having a little debate on a social media site about it. I'll quote his response

"You also forget it was Christians that are the ones that pushed for the END of slavery and fought for civil rights in the 60's, not scientists. And there are scientists that say aliens have landed and who disagree on just about every issue of science. It was also scientists that promoted Eugenics and Hitler's whole philosophy. You want to find someone using the Bible in a crazy way? I can find a scientist that is using science in a crazy way"

What say you?

Given that American society was largely Christian in both the abolitionist era and the civil rights era, it would be surprising if Christians were NOT involved in any major movement. This includes the movements to end slavery and institute civil rights reform. It also includes the movements to perpetuate slavery and block civil rights reform. What's telling is that non-Christians were involved on both sides of these movements as well, so saying that any of them were exclusively Christian movements is patently false. Same with scientists and non-scientists. Neither science nor Christianity gains or loses any cred here... unless one of them claims moral guidance from an infallible being. Then being split on what we now know was a clear-cut moral issue kinda undermines that claim...

Eugenics is a subtle subject. Insofar that it was ever a science, it was the study of inherited traits in humans. (And in many cases, it was rather dismal science.) When the movement turned to breeding programs and forced sterilizations, it moved beyond the realm of science and into the realm of policy. Science may have taken a clearer picture of the world, but it was not science that made the decision to ACT in such heinous ways in light of that picture. As another example, science tells us that nuclear fission is possible and can produce an immense amount of energy, but science does not tell us to drop hydrogen bombs on civilian targets. By and large, if the message of science is "do this" or "don't do that", it isn't actually science. Science doesn't tell us what to do. It simply tells us what is the case, and what its implications are. How we navigate this knowledge is on us.

Hitler's "whole" philosophy had more to do with a centuries-long tradition of Christian antisemitism that seeped out of Christianity into general society, than with science. (Though it would be better to say that his whole philosophy was about militant nationalism, and "purifying" the nation of those he claimed were corrupting or sabotaging it was only a single element of that.) While he believed strongly in the superiority of the Aryan people, there was no peer-reviewed scientific basis for this belief.

Thanks for this awesome reply. I said something similar to this and got the reply "You need to study Eugenics and things like the infections of untold blacks in the south with syphilis. Your "science can do no wrong" is exactly what people do with religion. You have become like what you hate."
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05-09-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
I find it irksome that theist believe atheist have to answer for anything. It is not like as an atheist I worship science, scientists, or the scientific method. If you have a better way of acquiring or applying knowledge then I am all ears. If you find an abuse somewhere then I want to hear about it. There is nothing sacred about science. How science was done in the past doesn't readily reflect how science is done in the presence or how it should be done in the future. The impacts of scientific discovery are an entirely separate matter from the discovery itself. When a theist begins an argument with something along the lines of "if science is so great how come [blah blah]" I don't know how to parse it. So what? How does this prove or disprove anything about the theism or the existence of god? How does this say anything about my lack of belief in your faith/god? It always seem to be a non sequitor, only tempting to respond to because of how bloated it is with willful ignorance.
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