I have proof science is bad?
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05-09-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 08:07 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 08:47 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Welcome.

I don't know why all my spidy-troll-senses perked up when I read your OP.

Mine too.

Hey now. There's no need to be hostile. I'll be the judge of who or what is a troll.
(05-09-2014 10:30 AM)victormarte Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 12:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Given that American society was largely Christian in both the abolitionist era and the civil rights era, it would be surprising if Christians were NOT involved in any major movement. This includes the movements to end slavery and institute civil rights reform. It also includes the movements to perpetuate slavery and block civil rights reform. What's telling is that non-Christians were involved on both sides of these movements as well, so saying that any of them were exclusively Christian movements is patently false. Same with scientists and non-scientists. Neither science nor Christianity gains or loses any cred here... unless one of them claims moral guidance from an infallible being. Then being split on what we now know was a clear-cut moral issue kinda undermines that claim...

Eugenics is a subtle subject. Insofar that it was ever a science, it was the study of inherited traits in humans. (And in many cases, it was rather dismal science.) When the movement turned to breeding programs and forced sterilizations, it moved beyond the realm of science and into the realm of policy. Science may have taken a clearer picture of the world, but it was not science that made the decision to ACT in such heinous ways in light of that picture. As another example, science tells us that nuclear fission is possible and can produce an immense amount of energy, but science does not tell us to drop hydrogen bombs on civilian targets. By and large, if the message of science is "do this" or "don't do that", it isn't actually science. Science doesn't tell us what to do. It simply tells us what is the case, and what its implications are. How we navigate this knowledge is on us.

Hitler's "whole" philosophy had more to do with a centuries-long tradition of Christian antisemitism that seeped out of Christianity into general society, than with science. (Though it would be better to say that his whole philosophy was about militant nationalism, and "purifying" the nation of those he claimed were corrupting or sabotaging it was only a single element of that.) While he believed strongly in the superiority of the Aryan people, there was no peer-reviewed scientific basis for this belief.

Thanks for this awesome reply. I said something similar to this and got the reply "You need to study Eugenics and things like the infections of untold blacks in the south with syphilis. Your "science can do no wrong" is exactly what people do with religion. You have become like what you hate."

WE'VE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE!

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05-09-2014, 02:35 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 09:24 AM)kim Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 08:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hehehe... extreme atheist... "I don't believe in God very very very hard".... Man, if there was a competition for not believing in God I'd win it. The others would be nowhere... You think *you* don't believe in God? Wait 'til I show you the extent of my lack of belief in God.

Nuh uh - I have way less belief in a nonexistent thing than you!

In fact, I don't believe so much, that my lack of belief is nonexistent! Blink

Have you discovered homeopathic religion? Shocking

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-09-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
How are churches built? Science.
Where did the heat/AC for the churches come from? Science.
Pulpit microphones? Science.
Slow-burning candles? Science.
Printed Bibles? Science.
Printed and coined money? Science.
Technology to mass produce lies via web, film, books, TV, voice recordings? Science.

Yeah, Christians hate that evil science stuff. Dodgy

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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05-09-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 09:24 AM)kim Wrote:  Nuh uh - I have way less belief in a nonexistent thing than you!

In fact, I don't believe so much, that my lack of belief is nonexistent! Blink

Have you discovered homeopathic religion? Shocking

I think there's some money to be made there. Big Grin

#sigh
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05-09-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 02:33 PM)Hamata k Wrote:  WE'VE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE!

Eh, maybe. Could be a troll using the "I'm not the troll, I just want help talking to the real troll" routine. Or could be just what it appears to be. Either way, best strategy is responding to the "real troll's" response in a level-headed manner, without offering up the desired flaming on one hand or unjustly flaming an innocent newcomer on the other. So really, it doesn't matter which the case is.

(05-09-2014 10:30 AM)victormarte Wrote:  Thanks for this awesome reply. I said something similar to this and got the reply "You need to study Eugenics and things like the infections of untold blacks in the south with syphilis. Your "science can do no wrong" is exactly what people do with religion. You have become like what you hate."

"Infections of untold blacks in the south with syphilis" sounds more like policy than science, because it has a "did something" element rather than just "predicted something" or "understood something". It might be a policy informed by science. Probably BAD science (or at least a very bad IDEA of science) if it gave an impression that propagating infectious disease in the population was a good idea. But it was not science.

Again, science is a method of acquiring, increasing, and vetting our understanding and awareness of how things work and what exists. It yields "is" knowledge and "was" knowledge and "will" knowledge and "A implies B" knowledge. It doesn't give "should" or "do" or "don't" commands. Physics and physiology can tell us that pushing someone off a cliff will cause them to fall to their almost-certain death. They don't tell us whether this is good or bad, advisable or not. That comes from something else, be it empathy, or humanism (secular OR religious), or hatred, or additional awareness of legal consequences and a similarly nonscientific judgement of their undesirability. It can tell us that certain actions will likely result in certain outcomes, and this can inform our actions, but science doesn't attempt to tell us which of these outcomes we should find desirable. Religion DOES try to tell us this. This is a fundamental difference between the two, and they cannot be equated.
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05-09-2014, 06:41 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 02:33 PM)Hamata k Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 08:07 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Mine too.

Hey now. There's no need to be hostile. I'll be the judge of who or what is a troll.
(05-09-2014 10:30 AM)victormarte Wrote:  Thanks for this awesome reply. I said something similar to this and got the reply "You need to study Eugenics and things like the infections of untold blacks in the south with syphilis. Your "science can do no wrong" is exactly what people do with religion. You have become like what you hate."

WE'VE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE!

I don't think posting what I've posted shows any evidence of trolling. I could just show you a picture of the convo to shut you up, but where's the fun in that Sleepy

Anyway, thanks for your responses Relt, I'll post again if the guy I'm debating now replies with something I have no response to.
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05-09-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
I find it interesting and somewhat funny that many religious people (namely Christians) feel this need to put down science. If there is no god, science exists. If there is a god, science exists. Not sure why they feel like they're betraying their god should they desire a thirst for scientific knowledge.

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05-09-2014, 08:38 PM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
Slavery, Genocide, and murder is the result of religion as it is the very thing that teaches us to kill and enslave others. Science is nothing more than a process in which we use in order to discover.

Science has nothing to do with human morality. In the bible, Jesus taught people how to beat their slave. That if they got up in less then 2-3 days or so I think it was. It's OK!

The bible is responsible in a good part to racism and 100% of the problems in the middle east, most specifically the Palestine vs Israel conflict.

All over the bible, Quran and Torah, it teaches us hatred and bigotry towards others and their beliefs and mark of cain teaches us that black people are cursed and inferior.

Science teaches us nothing about any of these issues. It is responsible for the creation of bad things yes. Like bombs and guns. But that is the result of the ideals of religion and the corruption of government which was first spawned by religion that is the result of money being payed for scientists to make such things.

Science is also a great responsible authority for why we are becoming healthier, cleaner and living more than double what we used to vs a long time ago.

It is the thing responsible for why we have so much knowledge. Before science, God did it was the only answer to everything in the universe and to say otherwise would had gotten you beheaded or worst. Your whole family could had been killed by the king who ruled over your pathetic worthless lives.

The moment science was set free to expand our minds. Kings started to vanish, emperors became a oddity and now today. Those are almost completely non existent. Only left to countries who still live off of old archaic governments.

Science will be our way off this rock and ensure we live longer than our own sun. It will be what gives us immortality and pushes us further to understanding the universe and why we are here.

Science is Good to those who are not corrupt by religion, greed and archaic philosophies.


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06-09-2014, 07:40 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
(05-09-2014 07:47 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  I find it interesting and somewhat funny that many religious people (namely Christians) feel this need to put down science. If there is no god, science exists. If there is a god, science exists. Not sure why they feel like they're betraying their god should they desire a thirst for scientific knowledge.

100% agreed Deidre.

Science is a method. We use it to build models of understanding. It is what people choose to do with what we learn from that method and the models that determines a positive or negative consequence.

Let's say for silly story telling examples... One person could discover a method for finding certain formations of rock for instance. Let's say that we're able to form a hypothesis and come out with a model that explains how certain rocks are found in a geographical area. Due to natural erosion and a certain previous formation of river, certain really nice round rocks form in this area. They weigh a really nice 8oz, they're nearly perfectly round, and because of this model we can find these rocks perfectly in this area.

Someone comes along and uses it to find these rocks so they can shoot people with a slingshot. 8 people end up in the hospital over a period of a week due to the mad wielding sling shot madman of blahbadee creek. Clearly the science was evil.

What I see the person debating with the OP doing is essentially looking for a reason to argue morality. I don't think it has anything to do with science, because if the person actually understood that science is a method and a way to approach understanding something and explaining things... I don't think they'd be arguing.

What I'm hearing at the core of the argument is, "Science and atheism is immoral because it lacks a god, morality comes from christianity, therefore god." and of course, attempting to use examples of horrible dictators to boast their confirmation bias, even though inaccurate (Hitler was a Christian... and still irrelevant).

I'd be asking the person to get to the core of their argument and stop using red herrings, logical fallacies and bullshit examples and to actually state their argument. They're tap dancing, pointing fingers and don't appear to have actually done any research to defend it.

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06-09-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: I have proof science is bad?
Science is a methodology by which we can discover some measure of truth about the world. What we do with that truth can be used to help people or harm people.

A hand held telescope with a tripod can be used to observe the night sky and make some wonderful discoveries. It can also be used to bludgeon someone to death.

How we use what we know can be good or bad. The discovery process isn't.

Religion doesn't discover. It makes shit up and then asks you to believe it.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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