I just need to vent
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05-05-2014, 06:04 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:22 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 06:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Goodness no. Atheists do have morals. They are no different than anyone else when it comes to thinking things like rape is wrong.

It is just that atheists when making such statements are being inconsistent with their denial of a transcendant moral law-giver. In the absence of such a One, there is no coherent ontology for objective moral values and duties.

This is true, and we don't need a moral law-giver to be moral.

This is why in current society, we say that rape is wrong. We don't attach weird qualifiers to it, such as only caring if the woman were a virgin or whether or not she was betrothed. You'll find no such prohibitions in the Bible. Almighty God, in all his infinite wisdom, couldn't be troubled to ever explicitly forbid rape.

Of course, we know this is because it's all a bunch of Hebrew mythology, heavily tainted with the cultural beliefs of one specific group at the time. This is why God's morality never progresses but ours does. We don't need fairy tales to scare us into having empathy, and we can actually use empathy as opposed to arbitrary oath-swearing to figure out if a person is good or not.

I find this 2009 survey in the UK interesting. Note the "no religion" population in prison as compared to the so called morally religious population.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e...n_2009.jpg

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-05-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:04 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 06:22 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is true, and we don't need a moral law-giver to be moral.

This is why in current society, we say that rape is wrong. We don't attach weird qualifiers to it, such as only caring if the woman were a virgin or whether or not she was betrothed. You'll find no such prohibitions in the Bible. Almighty God, in all his infinite wisdom, couldn't be troubled to ever explicitly forbid rape.

Of course, we know this is because it's all a bunch of Hebrew mythology, heavily tainted with the cultural beliefs of one specific group at the time. This is why God's morality never progresses but ours does. We don't need fairy tales to scare us into having empathy, and we can actually use empathy as opposed to arbitrary oath-swearing to figure out if a person is good or not.

I find this 2009 survey in the UK interesting. Note the "no religion" population in prison as compared to the so called morally religious population.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e...n_2009.jpg

Studies in the us show similar trends. Blows the religion and morality argument to hell.
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05-05-2014, 06:08 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 05:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 06:57 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I am not sure why that matters. We have morals, much of which we generally agree upon, and having these morals usually leads to positive outcomes and a moral predictable and orderly society. Why does morality need to be objective to be useful?

Also, morality is not objective, regardless of whether or not god exists this would still be true. If morality was objective all moral wrongs would be possible to definitively identify as such. It would be akin to solving a math problem, with one clearly right answer and all others being wrong answer. If they were objective then morality would be obvious, and it would be the fault of the actor if they committed a moral wrong. Even if you buy whole sale into the bible it doesn't offer very many objective moral truths and it falls well short of providing well enough in moral proscription to be able to objectively resolve most moral arguments.

If you hold that god is the source of morality, and that the bible gives us all of our objective moral truths, then you have to qualify that quite a bit. Is everything in the bible moral? When god told josua to kill every living thing in his enemies town, including the women, children, babies, and animals, and sow salt into the fields, was this objectively moral? Can you imagine, as a non believe, how we might be confused and offended by this sentiment? Please explain.

Michael imagine you are an adventurous man. While on a journey through some remote land, you come across a society of people who have certain cultural practices. One such practice is that at the age of 15, every male is given the opportunity to rape a female. The elders of the society encourage the young lads to do this because they see it as a sign of one's coming of age. It demonstrates that the male is no longer a boy, but a man, who is attracted to the opposite sex, sees what he wants, makes a plan and course of action to obtain what he wants, and then has the ability to achieve his goal. Those males who refuse to participate in this coming of age rite are seen as gutless, weak, and effeminate boys who are good for nothing but to be slaves of the males who participate in the rite.

You are with your tour guide/translator and happen upon this rite taking place. You see a young lad chasing down a screaming young woman while the elders look on. You see him force himself upon her as she kicks and screams to no avail. You see him ravish her and shame her in front of everyone present and then get up and kick dust on her as if she were nothing.

You then see the elders lavish and bestow praise unto him for his fearlessness.

Your response would be?

Shock and horror probably.

Jeremy, I wish you would address the points I made. While I don't know for what purpose, I can see you are leading me down a path towards cultural relativism. I'll bite, but as much as I like to look introspectively at my own beliefs, I expect you at some point to justify yours.
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05-05-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:08 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Jeremy, I wish you would address the points I made. While I don't know for what purpose, I can see you are leading me down a path towards cultural relativism. I'll bite, but as much as I like to look introspectively at my own beliefs, I expect you at some point to justify yours.

No kidding. It's not like the Bible is any better. Deuteronomy 22 says that if a betrothed virgin is raped in a town and doesn't scream, she is to be put to death because she wanted it. Apparently they hadn't invented knives yet, or something.

But yeah, all fapping to moral absolutism aside, it's not like YHWH is the shining beacon of righteousness Christians keep talking about. That, or their view of righteousness is completely fucked.
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05-05-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:08 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 05:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Michael imagine you are an adventurous man. While on a journey through some remote land, you come across a society of people who have certain cultural practices. One such practice is that at the age of 15, every male is given the opportunity to rape a female. The elders of the society encourage the young lads to do this because they see it as a sign of one's coming of age. It demonstrates that the male is no longer a boy, but a man, who is attracted to the opposite sex, sees what he wants, makes a plan and course of action to obtain what he wants, and then has the ability to achieve his goal. Those males who refuse to participate in this coming of age rite are seen as gutless, weak, and effeminate boys who are good for nothing but to be slaves of the males who participate in the rite.

You are with your tour guide/translator and happen upon this rite taking place. You see a young lad chasing down a screaming young woman while the elders look on. You see him force himself upon her as she kicks and screams to no avail. You see him ravish her and shame her in front of everyone present and then get up and kick dust on her as if she were nothing.

You then see the elders lavish and bestow praise unto him for his fearlessness.

Your response would be?

Shock and horror probably.

Jeremy, I wish you would address the points I made. While I don't know for what purpose, I can see you are leading me down a path towards cultural relativism. I'll bite, but as much as I like to look introspectively at my own beliefs, I expect you at some point to justify yours.

Shock and horror....

Would you say that they had done something wrong?

By the way, I am addressing your points by first getting an idea of your views so that I will know best how to address your points.
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05-05-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 05:53 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You seem to be insinuating that there is a moral law that exists which states that young women should not be raped just because men think it is a manly thing to do, and that these elders and fifteen year old have broken this law, either out of ignorance or willful disregard.....

Very interesting.....

Is this what you are saying?

We get it. You can't conceive of simply using empathy to figure out if something would be harmful to someone else. You think morality has to come from YHWH. Let me ask you something: where does your god prohibit that same situation you mentioned?

If that woman isn't a virgin, there's no explicit law anywhere in the Bible prohibiting her rape. Do you feel that:
  • raping her is okay?
  • raping her is wrong? Why? Where did you get that morality?
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05-05-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:27 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 06:08 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Jeremy, I wish you would address the points I made. While I don't know for what purpose, I can see you are leading me down a path towards cultural relativism. I'll bite, but as much as I like to look introspectively at my own beliefs, I expect you at some point to justify yours.

No kidding. It's not like the Bible is any better. Deuteronomy 22 says that if a betrothed virgin is raped in a town and doesn't scream, she is to be put to death because she wanted it. Apparently they hadn't invented knives yet, or something.

But yeah, all fapping to moral absolutism aside, it's not like YHWH is the shining beacon of righteousness Christians keep talking about. That, or their view of righteousness is completely fucked.

Any mention of the Bible right now is red herring tossing. It serves only to take focus off of my simple questions that have nothing to do with the bible whatsoever.

If a woman is being raped as in the aforementioned hypothetical, would you have anything to say about it?
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05-05-2014, 06:35 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:32 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 05:53 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You seem to be insinuating that there is a moral law that exists which states that young women should not be raped just because men think it is a manly thing to do, and that these elders and fifteen year old have broken this law, either out of ignorance or willful disregard.....

Very interesting.....

Is this what you are saying?

We get it. You can't conceive of simply using empathy to figure out if something would be harmful to someone else. You think morality has to come from YHWH. Let me ask you something: where does your god prohibit that same situation you mentioned?

If that woman isn't a virgin, there's no explicit law anywhere in the Bible prohibiting her rape. Do you feel that:
  • raping her is okay?
  • raping her is wrong? Why? Where did you get that morality?

I am not asking how we know something is harmful. That would be to delve into epistemology. I am concerned with whether or not anyone here thinks that raping a woman because one thinks it is a manly thing to do is something that is wrong. And if so, how and why?

Is it the same as telling someone they are wrong for getting the sum of five for four and four, or is saying it is wrong just your statement of opinion, akin to saying spaghetti is nasty?
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05-05-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:07 PM)natachan Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 06:04 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I find this 2009 survey in the UK interesting. Note the "no religion" population in prison as compared to the so called morally religious population.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e...n_2009.jpg

Studies in the us show similar trends. Blows the religion and morality argument to hell.

A lot of theists argue that people in prison are going to have a quick religious conversion to get better treatment in prison and maybe a shorter sentence, but the UK is slowly becoming an atheist country and it isn't really a factor in sentencing. It's also interesting that the divorce rate among atheists is lower in the US. Been married 25 years this June..... to another atheist. But ooooohhhh, because I don't believe in god somehow I'm immoral. What a bunch of bunk.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-05-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 06:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 06:07 PM)natachan Wrote:  Studies in the us show similar trends. Blows the religion and morality argument to hell.

A lot of theists argue that people in prison are going to have a quick religious conversion to get better treatment in prison and maybe a shorter sentence, but the UK is slowly becoming an atheist country and it isn't really a factor in sentencing. It's also interesting that the divorce rate among atheists is lower in the US. Been married 25 years this June..... to another atheist. But ooooohhhh, because I don't believe in god somehow I'm immoral. What a bunch of bunk.

that is the problem with you. you are not comprehending what I am writing. I never said you were immoral because you were an atheist.

To say that atheists are immoral because they are atheists is bunk. I agree with you.

What I am saying is that you have no grounds for making moral statements if you deny the existence of objective moral values and duties.

YOU HAVE NO GROUNDS for making statements like, The God of the Bible ordered things that were wrong or evil or bad, for such statements in order to even make sense require that there exist some standard from which said acts deviate or fail to adhere to.

You cannot on one hand say there is no evil, no right or wrong and then say the God of the Bible is evil and ordered wrong things to be done.

You cannot say both and not be contradicting yourself.

Get it?
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