I just need to vent
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05-05-2014, 08:03 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 07:36 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 07:04 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Facepalm

[edit] Get raped, Jeremy! Then get back to us on how you think it's wrong because "gawd", and not because your asshole hurts Dodgy

[Image: 26400-Abandon-thread-felix-red-bull-LsIl.gif]

One need not believe in God in order to recognize that rape is wrong my friend. Wrong regardless of whether or not the rapist thinks its just fine and dandy.

Your are escaping to a moral high ground in order to avoid my argument. There is no objective moral truth. You and I find rape repugnant, but there is nothing objective that necessitates it be so. If you have an objective moral argument for why rape is wrong, I would love to hear it. If your argument is indeed objective, I will be unable to refute it, and I will be forced to change my position.
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05-05-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 08:03 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 07:36 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  One need not believe in God in order to recognize that rape is wrong my friend. Wrong regardless of whether or not the rapist thinks its just fine and dandy.

Your are escaping to a moral high ground in order to avoid my argument. There is no objective moral truth. You and I find rape repugnant, but there is nothing objective that necessitates it be so. If you have an objective moral argument for why rape is wrong, I would love to hear it. If your argument is indeed objective, I will be unable to refute it, and I will be forced to change my position.

Simple. You think raping young women is wrong even if rapists think it is right. In thinking this you admit that just because they think it is right does not actually make it so.
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05-05-2014, 08:33 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2014 09:35 PM by djhall.)
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 05:53 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  But I must ask...ignorant of what?

You seem to be insinuating that there is a moral law that exists which states that young women should not be raped just because men think it is a manly thing to do, and that these elders and fifteen year old have broken this law, either out of ignorance or willful disregard.....

Very interesting.....

Is this what you are saying?

As someone raised with heavy indoctrination in the christian faith, this was one of the greatest challenges of my life, and one I spent more than 20 years agonizing over and searching to answer. I must know god to know good from bad, but I must know good and bad to know the truth of god.

Consider the following chain of scripture from Matthew 7:

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
...
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
...
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
...
“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

What are we to make of this chain of scripture? Many false prophets will claim to have prophesied and driven out demons and performed miracles in Gods name, yet they are still false prophets, they are wolves in sheep's clothing. How are we to know which are false and which are true? Well, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit, and by judging their fruits good or bad you will know truth.

To know good from bad is to know the true prophet from the many false prophets. How can we know the true god if we don't know good and bad? How can we know good and bad if we don't know the true god? Are we not trapped in an endless circle? Prophesies, expelling demons, and miracles are clearly unreliable indicators of the true god and prophets, so supernatural "proof" is clearly just a distraction. Are we not stuck with the only advice being, "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Ask WHO? Ask god? I need the answer to know the true god to ask? If not god then WHO?

But the final piece is right there... One tiny little sentence that is the key to everything. So small, so unassuming, so easy to overlook. "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

Do you see my argument? Does it help that is in your own bible in the very words of your own god? From you comes the truth of good and bad. If you ask yourself, "What does it mean to 'in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you?", if you truly seek the answers to that one fundamental key, if you keep knocking on that door.... you will find right and wrong, you will find morality, and from that moral judgement you will know how to identify false prophets by judging their fruits against what you know to be good and bad.

Forget the miracles, forget the prophets, forget people who claim to peddle god.... use compassion, empathy, reason, to seek the answer to what it means to treat others as you would have them treat you, and you will find right and wrong, and from there you will know the truth or false prophesy of those who claim to be or know god.

Is it presumptuous to think man knows the truth of good and bad? God is the standard of good and bad, man is a sinner, and we need god to tell is right from wrong. Perhaps. But then it would be strange that Jesus would tell us to find the answer in how we want to be treated, isn't it.... And then there is that little story of Adam and Eve.....

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." Wait, say what? A tree that gives mankind knowledge of good and evil? Nah... that can't be. 'And the Lord God said, “Man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Say what? Man has become like god, knowing good and evil. We seek that knowledge with the golden rule as a hint, as a guide. And with that knowledge we have in us we will know the truth from false prophecy?!?!?!?

Still want to tell us we can't know morality unless we know god? Do you still think you found god first and then he told you good and bad? Remember when you admitted that even if it was proven that the Allah of the 9/11 hijackers and suicide bombers and throat slitters spreading Islam by the sword were absolutely conclusively proven to be the true god you still wouldn't worship him? Why not? Shouldn't you just accept that good and bad are whatever that god tells you they are? Or do we already know right and wrong, do we find morality within us, and THEN we know god from false prophets? Is it not possible that you already know this from within, and you know Allah isn't right, and that is why you wouldn't worship him no matter the proof that he was god?

And yes, I realize I just used scripture to make an argument as an atheist on an atheist forum. Just because we don't agree it is the literal word of god doesn't mean we can't acknowledge good ideas that were incorporated into it.
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05-05-2014, 08:58 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 07:00 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 06:46 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  As weird as it is for you to comprehend, there is no universal truth out there making rape bad.

You say the above and then say....

(05-05-2014 06:46 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  We, as humans say it's bad, because we have empathy, and realize it needlessly hurts another person.

You are saying that no human being should needlessly hurt another, but since you said that the only reason this is bad is because some humans say it is bad, then for those who disagree with you and say it is good (many exist who love inflicting harm upon others), then it is good because they say it is. But then one act can be both good and bad......according to you...

Facepalm

You're loading the word "should" too much in order to make me say things I didn't say. I'm not saying that we shouldn't rape people because of magnetic fields, or some shit. I thought I made that pretty clear. Most of us don't because of empathy. That's it. Nothing more fancy than that. At the end of the day, it's not something I have a desire to do, and the thought repulses me.

It doesn't matter that I didn't come to that conclusion because Feng Shui Ju Ju vibes or invisible wizards or whatever.


Jeremy, you're the type of person who thinks the only optimal solution to the prisoner's dilemma is to defect, aren't you? Or would you only corporate because a Jesus told you to?
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05-05-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 07:59 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Remember to tell that to the atheists here the next time they start talking about the evil Bible and the evil God of the evil Bible and the evil Christians who worship this evil God.

A great example: Evil God or loving Father? All depends on who you ask!!!

Remember to chime in and say: "All depends on who you ask!" Thumbsup

I'm sorry you can't use empathy to figure out why murder is bad. I'm sorry you're incapable of questioning an entity that murders so long as it declares its murders to be Good.
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05-05-2014, 09:05 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 08:32 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 08:03 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Your are escaping to a moral high ground in order to avoid my argument. There is no objective moral truth. You and I find rape repugnant, but there is nothing objective that necessitates it be so. If you have an objective moral argument for why rape is wrong, I would love to hear it. If your argument is indeed objective, I will be unable to refute it, and I will be forced to change my position.

Simple. You think raping young women is wrong even if rapists think it is right. In thinking this you admit that just because they think it is right does not actually make it so.

That in no way says anything about a "moral argument" (for the gods).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-05-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 05:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 10:31 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Our ability to think comes from genes.* The specific thoughts that result do not. Morality doesn't come from genes in the same way that thoughts don't. You're one of those ignoramuses that come here trying to use evolution against atheists without having the slightest clue what it's really about.

*Some have more of this than others. Dodgy

Do not our thoughts come from our brains?
Yes. Were you making a point?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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05-05-2014, 09:37 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 09:06 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 05:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Do not our thoughts come from our brains?
Yes. Were you making a point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics...and_memory
Your thought patters are determined in part by genetics and epigenetics.
(Of course that makes "free will" meaningless).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-05-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 09:06 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Yes. Were you making a point?

He doesn't make 'points', he makes mental diarrhea.

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05-05-2014, 09:43 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2014 09:47 PM by Michael_Tadlock.)
RE: I just need to vent
(05-05-2014 08:32 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 08:03 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Your are escaping to a moral high ground in order to avoid my argument. There is no objective moral truth. You and I find rape repugnant, but there is nothing objective that necessitates it be so. If you have an objective moral argument for why rape is wrong, I would love to hear it. If your argument is indeed objective, I will be unable to refute it, and I will be forced to change my position.

Simple. You think raping young women is wrong even if rapists think it is right. In thinking this you admit that just because they think it is right does not actually make it so.

In order for that to be true morality would have to exist separate from the individual passing the moral judgement. It wouldn't be me interpreting morality then, just reporting on it. The same rational observer would perceive the same moral state, "wrong" in this case, regardless of who it is doing the observing, providing that the method by which they use to perceive morality (empathy and intellect right) was not impaired. The same way that if you and I examine the tree we both would report it to have the same dimensions and color. In this hypothetical example, this would produce a paradox. If the rapist and I are rational observers of morality, how would it be possible for me to perceive a moral wrong and for him to perceive a moral right then? For the sake of argument, lets say the rapist was in no way impaired, and therefore perfectly capable of perceiving moral right and wrong, and was telling the truth, in that he really did perceive no moral wrong. How would it be possible then for him to interpret morality differently from how I do? If indeed morality is objective, and both of us are rational observers without impediment, this shouldn't be possible.

If the rapist argument is too cut and dry, imagine the following scenario:

You have just found out your spouse has been unfaithful. You come to learn the person they have slept with is also married. Are you morally obligated to tell their lover's spouse aboout the affair?

You might say no, that their relationship doesn't concern you, and that your motivation to tell them is motivated at least in part in revenge.

You might also say yes, that you were deceived and would have wanted someone else to tell you if they knew, and they may feel the same way.

If morality is objective, there would have to be one clearly right answer and one clearly wrong answer. I think we can agree that two rational, moral people might come to to very different conclusions. The conclusions they come to would be based on their subjective principles and how they subjectively interpret the application of those principles to the problem at hand.

My view is consistent, in that so far as the rapist is concerned the rape is not wrong, so far as I am concerned the rape is wrong. I don't fetter myself with objective morality and so I am not burdened with the task of resolving the conflicting views. If morality is objective then you have to explain how it is possible for rational individuals to perceive objective morality two different ways.

A much more difficult task, if morality is objective and we agree that it is objective (for the purpose of argument) how does the bible provide objective moral truth? Is everything in the bible objectivly moral, or just some of it, and if just some of it, how do you distinguish between what is objectively moral and what isn't?
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