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06-05-2014, 05:14 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2014 05:32 AM by djhall.)
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 04:08 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am not concerned with how we KNOW (epistemology) what is right and wrong, but rather, what IS (ontology) right and wrong.
Right is that which:

1) Whenever possible treats all persons in every situation as ends in themselves, respects their points of view and values, and allows them to pursue their purposes, desires, and happiness without interference.

2) When #1 is not possible, it is that which strives to sustain this ideal to the greatest degree possible in imperfect conditions. If this was caused by someone violating the principle, it is that which restrains the guilty party and uses minimal force to restore and preserve #1. If there is no guilty party at fault, it is that which seeks and establishes as fair a compromise as the situation allows for restoring and maintaining #1 for all persons involved to the maximum degree possible.

Wrong is that which does not respect #1 and #2, and unnecessarily forces our purposes, points of view, values and desires upon others, and forces them to do what we want against their will.

(Left out for the purposes of this post is that which pertains to other sentient entities which are not also self-aware and thereby covered under an inclusive definition of the word "person")
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06-05-2014, 05:16 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The two are dependent dumbfuck. Someone who's epistemology is divine command theory is a-okay with murder and rape so long as it's commanded by the one emotionally stunted sycophantic pan-dimensional space wizard that they believe in. Someone who doesn't rely on divine command theory will arrive at a much different conclusion to what is right and wrong because they use a different metric. Epistemology informs ontology. Facepalm

This was literately the whole point of the Harris/Craig debate.

I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

Jeremy, unlike you, we've actually read the bible....

It’s claimed God struck down people for the most trivial of reasons. He personally exercised his wrath on over three hundred thousand people, and commanded the execution of over one and a half mil- lion more. I’ll choose only a few examples from a list of hundreds to give the reader a taste of how cheap life was in the Old Testament.

Kill sons of sinners:
“Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their father! Never again must they rise to conquer the world and cover the face of the earth with their cities” (Isa. 14:21, NJB.)

Kill people who don’t obey priests:
“If anyone presumes to disobey either the priest who is there in the service of Yahweh your God, or the judge, that person must die. You must banish this evil from Israel” (Deut. 17:12, NJB.)
Death for hitting mum or dad:
“Anyone who strikes father or mother will be put to death” (Exod. 21:15, NJB.)

Death for cursing mum or dad:
“Hence: Anyone who curses father or mother will be put to death. Having cursed father or mother, the blood will be on that person’s own head” (Lev. 20:9, NJB.)

Death for adultery:
“The man who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife will be put to death, he and the woman” (Lev. 20:10, NJB.)

Genocide:
“And all living things that stirred on earth perished; birds, cattle, wild animals, all the creatures swarming over the earth, and all human beings. Everything with the least breath of life in its nostrils, everything on dry land, died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out, people, animals, creeping things and birds; they were wiped off the earth and only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark” (Gen. 7:21–23, NJB.) The make-believe God initi- ated a fictional genocide, killing nearly every person from newborns to the elderly in a flood. He wrecked his own creation like a little boy who got frustrated and smashed the model airplane he’d been building.

“My angel will precede you and lead you to the home of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, whom I shall exterminate” (Exod. 23:23, NJB.)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6sdpc8stqI).

Kill false prophets:
“Then, if anyone still goes on prophesying, his parents, his own father and mother will say to him, ‘You shall not live, since you utter lies in Yahweh’s name.’ And even while he is prophesying, his parents, his own father and mother will pierce him through” (Zech. 13:3, NJB.)

These stories confirm that priests promoted their own power over life and death, and regarded human life as cheap and expendable. Many Christians throughout history have thought this gave them license to kill, and millions have died as a consequence. Even some of our gov- ernments, as well as military and religious leaders, justify violence today based on biblical reasoning. In the Gulf War, for example, an F-16 fighter/bomber had “Isaiah 21:9” written on its bombs:
“Babylon has fallen, has fallen, and all the images of her gods he has shattered to the ground!” (Isa. 21:9, NJB.)

Infanticide
Yahweh thought some infants and children deserved death:
“All those who are found will be stabbed, all those captured will fall by the sword, their babies dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses plundered, their wives raped. Look, against them I am stirring up the Medes who care nothing for silver, who set no value by gold. Bows will annihilate the young men, they will have no pity for the fruit of the womb, or mercy in their eyes for children” (Isa. 13:15–18, NJB.)

“Ephraim is blasted, their root has dried out, they will bear no more fruit. And even if they do bear children I shall slaughter the darlings of their womb” (Hosea 9:16, NJB.)
“A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against rock” (Ps. 137:9, NJB.)

Even the unborn weren’t safe:
“Samaria will pay the penalty for having rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women disemboweled” (Hosea 14:1, NJB.)

God ordered the killing of boys, (and women who weren’t virgins)
“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him” (Num. 31:17, NJB.)

Rape and Pedophilia
“They had not gone to bed when the house was surrounded by the townspeople, the men of Sodom both young and old, all the people without exception...Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please, but do nothing to these men since they are now under the protection of my roof” (Gen. 19:4–8, NJB.) Lot offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped rather than his male guests being violated. The girls would have been horrified, but that didn’t matter. It was the male visitors that mustn’t be shamed. Later in Genesis, Lot gets blind drunk two nights in a row and has sex with both his daughters (http://www.biblegate- way.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A30-38&version=KJV).

God arranges a marriage:
“If a man meets a young virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her, sleeps with her and is caught in the act, her ravisher must give the girl’s father fifty silver shekels; since he has exploited her, she must be his wife and, as long as he lives, he may not divorce her” (Deut. 22:28–29, NJB.) The raping of an un-betrothed virgin was a viola- tion of the rights of her father. He couldn’t sell her to anyone else, (damaged goods) so she must be sold for fifty shekels to the man who raped her!

Death to the rape victim:
“If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man encounters her in the town and has sexual intercourse with her, you will take them both to the gate of the town in question and stone them to death: the girl, for not having called for help in the town; the man, for having exploited his fellow-citizen’s wife. You must banish this evil from among you” (Deut. 22:23–24, NJB.) It’s clear that God didn’t care about the rape victim. She could, after all, now be carrying another man’s seed, so deserved death. The rapist was punished... because he violated another Jewish man’s property.

Keep the virgin girls for sex:
“...but spare the lives of the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves” (Num. 31:18, NJB.) God gave license to the rape of young virgin girls. It was the social norm in some cultures for little girls to be married off or just used for sex, and God encouraged it.

“God’s” words must have an effect on Christian attitudes to pedophilia. Some priests read the bible every day. I think some of them have failed to appreciate the tragedy of pedophilia because it was so commonplace in the Old Testament.
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06-05-2014, 05:17 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2014 05:28 AM by djhall.)
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 04:39 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:23 AM)djhall Wrote:  It is never a waste. I don't participate and discuss things with people to try to change their minds. I do it to clarify, refine, evaluate, and improve my own ideas, beliefs, and reasoning.

Do you understand that the issue in discussion is not an epistemological one?
I do now. Big Grin I'm still getting acquainted with the philosophical terms used in these discussions. I was merely reassuring you that my time spent clarifying and codifying my thoughts wasn't really wasted for me even though I answered a different question than the one you were asking.
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06-05-2014, 05:37 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 05:16 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

Jeremy, unlike you, we've actually read the bible....

It’s claimed God struck down people for the most trivial of reasons. He personally exercised his wrath on over three hundred thousand people, and commanded the execution of over one and a half mil- lion more. I’ll choose only a few examples from a list of hundreds to give the reader a taste of how cheap life was in the Old Testament.

Kill sons of sinners:
“Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their father! Never again must they rise to conquer the world and cover the face of the earth with their cities” (Isa. 14:21, NJB.)

Kill people who don’t obey priests:
“If anyone presumes to disobey either the priest who is there in the service of Yahweh your God, or the judge, that person must die. You must banish this evil from Israel” (Deut. 17:12, NJB.)
Death for hitting mum or dad:
“Anyone who strikes father or mother will be put to death” (Exod. 21:15, NJB.)

Death for cursing mum or dad:
“Hence: Anyone who curses father or mother will be put to death. Having cursed father or mother, the blood will be on that person’s own head” (Lev. 20:9, NJB.)

Death for adultery:
“The man who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife will be put to death, he and the woman” (Lev. 20:10, NJB.)

Genocide:
“And all living things that stirred on earth perished; birds, cattle, wild animals, all the creatures swarming over the earth, and all human beings. Everything with the least breath of life in its nostrils, everything on dry land, died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out, people, animals, creeping things and birds; they were wiped off the earth and only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark” (Gen. 7:21–23, NJB.) The make-believe God initi- ated a fictional genocide, killing nearly every person from newborns to the elderly in a flood. He wrecked his own creation like a little boy who got frustrated and smashed the model airplane he’d been building.

“My angel will precede you and lead you to the home of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, whom I shall exterminate” (Exod. 23:23, NJB.)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6sdpc8stqI).

Kill false prophets:
“Then, if anyone still goes on prophesying, his parents, his own father and mother will say to him, ‘You shall not live, since you utter lies in Yahweh’s name.’ And even while he is prophesying, his parents, his own father and mother will pierce him through” (Zech. 13:3, NJB.)

These stories confirm that priests promoted their own power over life and death, and regarded human life as cheap and expendable. Many Christians throughout history have thought this gave them license to kill, and millions have died as a consequence. Even some of our gov- ernments, as well as military and religious leaders, justify violence today based on biblical reasoning. In the Gulf War, for example, an F-16 fighter/bomber had “Isaiah 21:9” written on its bombs:
“Babylon has fallen, has fallen, and all the images of her gods he has shattered to the ground!” (Isa. 21:9, NJB.)

Infanticide
Yahweh thought some infants and children deserved death:
“All those who are found will be stabbed, all those captured will fall by the sword, their babies dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses plundered, their wives raped. Look, against them I am stirring up the Medes who care nothing for silver, who set no value by gold. Bows will annihilate the young men, they will have no pity for the fruit of the womb, or mercy in their eyes for children” (Isa. 13:15–18, NJB.)

“Ephraim is blasted, their root has dried out, they will bear no more fruit. And even if they do bear children I shall slaughter the darlings of their womb” (Hosea 9:16, NJB.)
“A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against rock” (Ps. 137:9, NJB.)

Even the unborn weren’t safe:
“Samaria will pay the penalty for having rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women disemboweled” (Hosea 14:1, NJB.)

God ordered the killing of boys, (and women who weren’t virgins)
“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him” (Num. 31:17, NJB.)

Rape and Pedophilia
“They had not gone to bed when the house was surrounded by the townspeople, the men of Sodom both young and old, all the people without exception...Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please, but do nothing to these men since they are now under the protection of my roof” (Gen. 19:4–8, NJB.) Lot offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped rather than his male guests being violated. The girls would have been horrified, but that didn’t matter. It was the male visitors that mustn’t be shamed. Later in Genesis, Lot gets blind drunk two nights in a row and has sex with both his daughters (http://www.biblegate- way.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A30-38&version=KJV).

God arranges a marriage:
“If a man meets a young virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her, sleeps with her and is caught in the act, her ravisher must give the girl’s father fifty silver shekels; since he has exploited her, she must be his wife and, as long as he lives, he may not divorce her” (Deut. 22:28–29, NJB.) The raping of an un-betrothed virgin was a viola- tion of the rights of her father. He couldn’t sell her to anyone else, (damaged goods) so she must be sold for fifty shekels to the man who raped her!

Death to the rape victim:
“If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man encounters her in the town and has sexual intercourse with her, you will take them both to the gate of the town in question and stone them to death: the girl, for not having called for help in the town; the man, for having exploited his fellow-citizen’s wife. You must banish this evil from among you” (Deut. 22:23–24, NJB.) It’s clear that God didn’t care about the rape victim. She could, after all, now be carrying another man’s seed, so deserved death. The rapist was punished... because he violated another Jewish man’s property.

Keep the virgin girls for sex:
“...but spare the lives of the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves” (Num. 31:18, NJB.) God gave license to the rape of young virgin girls. It was the social norm in some cultures for little girls to be married off or just used for sex, and God encouraged it.

“God’s” words must have an effect on Christian attitudes to pedophilia. Some priests read the bible every day. I think some of them have failed to appreciate the tragedy of pedophilia because it was so commonplace in the Old Testament.

Nothing you wrote is evidence of God wrongfully killing anyone my friend or commanding someone to be raped.

You denounce pedophilia.

Are you saying humans have a moral obligation to protect and nurture children? If so, why is this objective?
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06-05-2014, 05:39 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The two are dependent dumbfuck. Someone who's epistemology is divine command theory is a-okay with murder and rape so long as it's commanded by the one emotionally stunted sycophantic pan-dimensional space wizard that they believe in. Someone who doesn't rely on divine command theory will arrive at a much different conclusion to what is right and wrong because they use a different metric. Epistemology informs ontology. Facepalm

This was literately the whole point of the Harris/Craig debate.

I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

You're right, god has never murdered anybody; because gods don't exist. But the ignorant fucks who write the Talmud, Bible, and Quran were all okay with it and attributing it to their god(s).

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06-05-2014, 05:53 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

But you agree God has killed before. You're just not calling it murder because you don't see it as wrongful. Yeah, I've heard the whole murder = wrongful killing and God only does righteous killing thing. It's presuppositionalist as hell, but I've heard it before.

This, however, is the first time I've seen someone define rape to be "wrongful" sexual abuse, given the context of bad and righteous killing. You're actually saying the sex forced on women against their will (which is what rape is. You don't get to redefine words) wasn't rape because God declared it?

Holy fuck shit! I'm done talking with you about morality. Your moral absolutist stance is that rape is okay so long as it's sanctioned by the proper invisible man. God damn, Jeremy.
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06-05-2014, 06:44 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 05:53 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

But you agree God has killed before. You're just not calling it murder because you don't see it as wrongful. Yeah, I've heard the whole murder = wrongful killing and God only does righteous killing thing. It's presuppositionalist as hell, but I've heard it before.

This, however, is the first time I've seen someone define rape to be "wrongful" sexual abuse, given the context of bad and righteous killing. You're actually saying the sex forced on women against their will (which is what rape is. You don't get to redefine words) wasn't rape because God declared it?

Holy fuck shit! I'm done talking with you about morality. Your moral absolutist stance is that rape is okay so long as it's sanctioned by the proper invisible man. God damn, Jeremy.

God never told anyone to rape anyone so I do not understand your point.

Actually you have only demonstrated mine. You think that Christians who defend the bible have broken some rule or law which humans are obligated to adhere to regardless of whether or not they think it is good. The law which states that defending rape is evil and wrong and should never be done.

You therefore think rape is objectively wrong. I.e. that it is wrong even if someone thinks it is right. But now you have to explain why this is objectively wrong? What makes it wrong OBJECTIVELY?

You cant say we all know it is wrong because we have empathy. That is not what I ask. I dont care how you know something to be wrong but rather, what makes it wrong....objectively?
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06-05-2014, 06:55 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 04:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The two are dependent dumbfuck. Someone who's epistemology is divine command theory is a-okay with murder and rape so long as it's commanded by the one emotionally stunted sycophantic pan-dimensional space wizard that they believe in. Someone who doesn't rely on divine command theory will arrive at a much different conclusion to what is right and wrong because they use a different metric. Epistemology informs ontology. Facepalm

This was literately the whole point of the Harris/Craig debate.

I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

Are you serious? He does so all over the OT.

If you are going to argue that none of those were WRONGFUL, that would be casuistry.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2014, 06:58 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(06-05-2014 06:44 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 05:53 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  But you agree God has killed before. You're just not calling it murder because you don't see it as wrongful. Yeah, I've heard the whole murder = wrongful killing and God only does righteous killing thing. It's presuppositionalist as hell, but I've heard it before.

This, however, is the first time I've seen someone define rape to be "wrongful" sexual abuse, given the context of bad and righteous killing. You're actually saying the sex forced on women against their will (which is what rape is. You don't get to redefine words) wasn't rape because God declared it?

Holy fuck shit! I'm done talking with you about morality. Your moral absolutist stance is that rape is okay so long as it's sanctioned by the proper invisible man. God damn, Jeremy.

God never told anyone to rape anyone so I do not understand your point.

Actually you have only demonstrated mine. You think that Christians who defend the bible have broken some rule or law which humans are obligated to adhere to regardless of whether or not they think it is good. The law which states that defending rape is evil and wrong and should never be done.

You therefore think rape is objectively wrong. I.e. that it is wrong even if someone thinks it is right. But now you have to explain why this is objectively wrong? What makes it wrong OBJECTIVELY?

You cant say we all know it is wrong because we have empathy. That is not what I ask. I dont care how you know something to be wrong but rather, what makes it wrong....objectively?

Objective morality does not exist and no one here is arguing that it does.

Quit strawmanning.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: I just need to vent
"God never told anyone to rape anyone so I do not understand your point."

Yes. He did. Very explicitly. He stated that the Israelites were to keep the women they conquered for themselves. What do you think that meant? He told the men to rape these women and gave the action his blessing. Was this ok? Was the forced sexual servitude of these women not really rape?
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