I just need to vent
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03-05-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:23 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:10 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Why?

You are just a man. Who died and made you God to determine what another person is right or wrong in doing. Who are you to say someone is wrong for doing something if they want to do it?

You sound like a meddlesome Christian always sticking their nose where it does not belong.

Your not making an argument, you are being deliberately inflammatory and provocative. I'm not angry, its just intellectually frustrating because I can't discern anything of value from that post.

you discern it quite clearly because you are not dumb.

you cannot on one hand charge Christians with being intolerant and exclusivistic when they condemn certain things they think are wrong and then on the other hand condemn certain things you think are wrong and say you are justified and they are not.

you may say well we all know rape is wrong. but clearly this is not true. many rapists think it just fine and dandy.

my point is this. when the atheist denounces the Christian for their views on things such as gay marriage, they do so as hypocrites because while denouncing intolerance they themselves are denouncing others out of intolerance.
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03-05-2014, 09:38 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:30 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  If what you're doing causes someone to feel mental or physical pain, or actual damage of either type, you are wrong. No ifs, ands, or butts Wink

Who says?

You?

Who are you?

Why is it that your views on morality have the trump card over the Christians views, or anyone else's?

What makes your view right and other people's views wrong?

Because you say so?


All of the above are questions atheists ask Christians all the time.....


You cannot have it both ways bro. You cannot say the Christian is intolerant and a bigot and then do the same things you accuse them of doing without being an intolerant bigot yourself. You are saying that a person is wrong if they do such and such. The Christian says a person is wrong if they do such and such. The atheist wants to simultaneously label the Christian as an intolerant bigot while being an intolerant bigot in assigning the label.
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03-05-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  my point is this. when the atheist denounces the Christian for their views on things such as gay marriage, they do so as hypocrites because while denouncing intolerance they themselves are denouncing others out of intolerance.

Pointing out that someone is an uncaring fucktard void of empathy does not make their critic likewise. This is not how things work, simply pointing out the reality of someones shortcomings does not make them indicative of the critic; unless you'd like to argue that a Christian's hatred of gays stems from their own wanton homosexuality? Consider

No matter, thanks for once again proving just how much of a complete and utter fucking retard you are.

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03-05-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:23 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Your not making an argument, you are being deliberately inflammatory and provocative. I'm not angry, its just intellectually frustrating because I can't discern anything of value from that post.

you discern it quite clearly because you are not dumb.

you cannot on one hand charge Christians with being intolerant and exclusivistic when they condemn certain things they think are wrong and then on the other hand condemn certain things you think are wrong and say you are justified and they are not.

you may say well we all know rape is wrong. but clearly this is not true. many rapists think it just fine and dandy.

my point is this. when the atheist denounces the Christian for their views on things such as gay marriage, they do so as hypocrites because while denouncing intolerance they themselves are denouncing others out of intolerance.

A moral argument is more complicated than that. You cannot debate morality with someone if you do not share a common set of principles. Christians and atheist do share many common moral principles, but we interpret them very differently. The christian ideology is inconsistent, because on one hand it preaches unconditional love and tolerance, and on the other hand explicitly condemns peoples and actions hatefully and without tolerance. In the case of homosexuality, the only reasons christains condemn homosexuals is because of one verse in Leviticus "though shalt not lay with another man". This being the same book which provides rules for beating slaves, expressly forbidding harboring witches, and what the proper restitution to a father is whose unwed daughter has been raped (incidentally, its 11 shekels of silver). Morality aside, from a purely rational perspective, how do you selectively follow one, god hates gays, and choose to ignore the others, its okay to beat your slave with a rod so long as you don't break a bone or knock out any teeth?

If the only justification for your moral position is the words of a book that seems to be a dubious authority on every subject, then how as an atheist am I supposed to respect that position?

On a more abstract plane of reasoning, there is no particular reason why child rape and adultery are wrong and eating banana smoothies is not. Its arbitrary in the sense that you could define morality in anyway you choose. The reason we hold the morals we do is because we generally agree on them. The reasons for this are complicated and I can only speculate. I would guess it falls out from our common western and american ideology (live and let live, freedom of choice, ect) our natural empathy for other human beings (don't kill, don't torture, ect), and sentiments that have proved useful for building and orderly and predictable society (don't steal, don't lie, ect).
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03-05-2014, 09:57 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 08:20 PM)Sam Wrote:  Sorry, but over here "vent" is a euphemism for "fart"...

Excuse me while I chuckle immaturely.

Yup, I confess, I tickles me too.

Also, as this thread, pre-derail, was about high velocity wind...

Damn you Benny Hill and Ben Elton et al... what have you done to us?
Angry

I suspect it's a misfiring in our humour-evolution.



(03-05-2014 08:47 PM)Impulse Wrote:  ...
I don't see anyone trying to pass laws against gay marriage based on bears hibernating.

I don't see anyone knocking on my door to convince me that snakes shed skin.

And I don't see buildings being blown up or woman being abused over anything to do with camels.
...

You took the words from my fingers! AngryHeart

I was going to go off on a rant about sleeping bears but I've calmed down now.

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03-05-2014, 09:58 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:39 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Pointing out that someone is an uncaring fucktard void of empathy does not make their critic likewise. This is not how things work, simply pointing out the reality of someones shortcomings does not make them indicative of the critic; unless you'd like to argue that a Christian's hatred of gays stems from their own wanton homosexuality? Consider

No matter, thanks for once again proving just how much of a complete and utter fucking retard you are.

Tolerance is the issue here. Something you conveniently avoided.

Many atheists accuse Christians of being intolerant of people's beliefs but will not hesitate to castigate Christians for theirs.

The hypocrisy is so prevalent that it goes largely unnoticed, or either willfully ignored.

The rallying cry of the many atheists is you should be more tolerant! They then prove themselves to be anything but tolerant when they not only are intolerant of the beliefs of Christians but even deem their own intolerance as justified. It is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.
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03-05-2014, 10:11 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:48 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  you discern it quite clearly because you are not dumb.

you cannot on one hand charge Christians with being intolerant and exclusivistic when they condemn certain things they think are wrong and then on the other hand condemn certain things you think are wrong and say you are justified and they are not.

you may say well we all know rape is wrong. but clearly this is not true. many rapists think it just fine and dandy.

my point is this. when the atheist denounces the Christian for their views on things such as gay marriage, they do so as hypocrites because while denouncing intolerance they themselves are denouncing others out of intolerance.

A moral argument is more complicated than that. You cannot debate morality with someone if you do not share a common set of principles. Christians and atheist do share many common moral principles, but we interpret them very differently. The christian ideology is inconsistent, because on one hand it preaches unconditional love and tolerance, and on the other hand explicitly condemns peoples and actions hatefully and without tolerance. In the case of homosexuality, the only reasons christains condemn homosexuals is because of one verse in Leviticus "though shalt not lay with another man". This being the same book which provides rules for beating slaves, expressly forbidding harboring witches, and what the proper restitution to a father is whose unwed daughter has been raped (incidentally, its 11 shekels of silver). Morality aside, from a purely rational perspective, how do you selectively follow one, god hates gays, and choose to ignore the others, its okay to beat your slave with a rod so long as you don't break a bone or knock out any teeth?

If the only justification for your moral position is the words of a book that seems to be a dubious authority on every subject, then how as an atheist am I supposed to respect that position?

On a more abstract plane of reasoning, there is no particular reason why child rape and adultery are wrong and eating banana smoothies is not. Its arbitrary in the sense that you could define morality in anyway you choose. The reason we hold the morals we do is because we generally agree on them. The reasons for this are complicated and I can only speculate. I would guess it falls out from our common western and american ideology (live and let live, freedom of choice, ect) our natural empathy for other human beings (don't kill, don't torture, ect), and sentiments that have proved useful for building and orderly and predictable society (don't steal, don't lie, ect).

God hates gays?

The Bibles states this where?

You are way off here with much of what you have stated about the Bible. This is your main problem.

Homosexuality is condemned not only in Leviticus but also in the NT. On this you are wrong as well. In fact no less than Jesus Himself gives us the ideal for marriage and it is between a man and a woman, as it was in the beginning. Paul also confirms that homosexuality is a sin, among other things.

The problem is that men love pleasure more than they love God. It is not too hard to see. It has been written and the long line of historical events bears this out.

Men and women love having sex and pleasure with one another, love drinking and getting drunk, love using drugs and partying and using and abusing one another for their own lustful enterprises. I know, I did it for years. Always burning and craving more, more pleasure, more more more....burning, being consumed and inflamed by it till my whole life was about pleasure, about feeling good..

You paint the bible as some old useless thing. Good for nothing except maybe a paper-weight, or a book-end.

You do not care to read its writings in their context. You do not try to take into consideration the times and places in which its writing were compiled. You open it up, find something you think don't fit, say AHA! close it up and throw it to the side.

The vast majority of pleasure seeking men and women just stay away from it. Trust me. They already know it condemns their lifestyle. The obstinate and obdurate make sport out of criticizing it. They get pleasure from this, that is why they do it.

Those who commit sin are slaves to sin.

The malady of the atheist is that he thinks he is free, but he, like Samson, is not only blind, but bound by the iron shackles of sin that hold him fast.

His greatest weakness lies in his pride which blinds him to his true state.
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03-05-2014, 10:13 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:38 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:30 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  If what you're doing causes someone to feel mental or physical pain, or actual damage of either type, you are wrong. No ifs, ands, or butts Wink

Who says?

You?

Who are you?

Why is it that your views on morality have the trump card over the Christians views, or anyone else's?

What makes your view right and other people's views wrong?

Because you say so?


All of the above are questions atheists ask Christians all the time.....


You cannot have it both ways bro. You cannot say the Christian is intolerant and a bigot and then do the same things you accuse them of doing without being an intolerant bigot yourself. You are saying that a person is wrong if they do such and such. The Christian says a person is wrong if they do such and such. The atheist wants to simultaneously label the Christian as an intolerant bigot while being an intolerant bigot in assigning the label.

Who am I? An invisible man you've never seen and would never have heard about had you been born in Tehran... I kid Tongue I'm a real person who doesn't like seeing other people with expressions of sadness, or hurt, on their face! Which is the only indicator one needs to know if they're doing wrong Shy So no one tells me (knowingly anyway). Which, also, makes my views have less to do with morals, and more to do with smiles and frowns. I prefer smiles Smile Even smiles on gay people Laugh out load When you happy = iz good. When you sad = iz bad. You don't like sad, right? Others don't either, prolly Shy

I'm being intolerant of someone being intolerant Wink that I'll admit. If you can't stand the heat, you have the right to leave the kitchen. But I am not being hateful Shy or making my posts in tears Big Grin (I haven't stopped smiling yet, actually Laugh out load ) so the only bigot here is you. I would give good money to see me any more "left alone to my own beliefs" in your church's congregation should I stop by to watch a mummer's farce. Less smiles, and more angry scowls on your end, I'm betting!

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03-05-2014, 10:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2014 10:25 PM by DLJ.)
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:58 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
The rallying cry of the many atheists is you should be more tolerant!
...

That's a new one.

Who said "The criticism of religion is,..., the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."?

Who said "Turn the other cheek"?

Consider

Pointing out christians' intolerance is not advocacy of tolerance.

Pointing out christians' intolerance is pointing out christians' hypocrisy.


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03-05-2014, 10:26 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 10:20 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:58 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
The rallying cry of the many atheists is you should be more tolerant!
...

That's a new one.

Who said "The criticism of religion is,..., the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."?

Who said "Turn the other cheek"?

Consider

Pointing out christian's intolerance is not advocacy of tolerance.

Pointing out christian's intolerance is pointing out christian's hypocrisy.

You do not know what tolerance is it seems. Nor how a Christian can be tolerant and at the same time tell someone that they need Christ to save them from their sins. Your view of Christians and intolerance is not an uncommon one. This view needs to be corrected.
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