I just need to vent
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03-05-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 10:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 09:48 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  A moral argument is more complicated than that. You cannot debate morality with someone if you do not share a common set of principles. Christians and atheist do share many common moral principles, but we interpret them very differently. The christian ideology is inconsistent, because on one hand it preaches unconditional love and tolerance, and on the other hand explicitly condemns peoples and actions hatefully and without tolerance. In the case of homosexuality, the only reasons christains condemn homosexuals is because of one verse in Leviticus "though shalt not lay with another man". This being the same book which provides rules for beating slaves, expressly forbidding harboring witches, and what the proper restitution to a father is whose unwed daughter has been raped (incidentally, its 11 shekels of silver). Morality aside, from a purely rational perspective, how do you selectively follow one, god hates gays, and choose to ignore the others, its okay to beat your slave with a rod so long as you don't break a bone or knock out any teeth?

If the only justification for your moral position is the words of a book that seems to be a dubious authority on every subject, then how as an atheist am I supposed to respect that position?

On a more abstract plane of reasoning, there is no particular reason why child rape and adultery are wrong and eating banana smoothies is not. Its arbitrary in the sense that you could define morality in anyway you choose. The reason we hold the morals we do is because we generally agree on them. The reasons for this are complicated and I can only speculate. I would guess it falls out from our common western and american ideology (live and let live, freedom of choice, ect) our natural empathy for other human beings (don't kill, don't torture, ect), and sentiments that have proved useful for building and orderly and predictable society (don't steal, don't lie, ect).

God hates gays?

The Bibles states this where?

You are way off here with much of what you have stated about the Bible. This is your main problem.

Homosexuality is condemned not only in Leviticus but also in the NT. On this you are wrong as well. In fact no less than Jesus Himself gives us the ideal for marriage and it is between a man and a woman, as it was in the beginning. Paul also confirms that homosexuality is a sin, among other things.

The problem is that men love pleasure more than they love God. It is not too hard to see. It has been written and the long line of historical events bears this out.

Men and women love having sex and pleasure with one another, love drinking and getting drunk, love using drugs and partying and using and abusing one another for their own lustful enterprises. I know, I did it for years. Always burning and craving more, more pleasure, more more more....burning, being consumed and inflamed by it till my whole life was about pleasure, about feeling good..

You paint the bible as some old useless thing. Good for nothing except maybe a paper-weight, or a book-end.

You do not care to read its writings in their context. You do not try to take into consideration the times and places in which its writing were compiled. You open it up, find something you think don't fit, say AHA! close it up and throw it to the side.

The vast majority of pleasure seeking men and women just stay away from it. Trust me. They already know it condemns their lifestyle. The obstinate and obdurate make sport out of criticizing it. They get pleasure from this, that is why they do it.

Those who commit sin are slaves to sin.

The malady of the atheist is that he thinks he is free, but he, like Samson, is not only blind, but bound by the iron shackles of sin that hold him fast.

His greatest weakness lies in his pride which blinds him to his true state.

I am not keen on sermons, but I do love arguments. If you put any of that in the form of an argument than we can keep having a discussion.

As for reading the bible, I have tried and got pretty far into it. I would have finished, but the book, worse than being hateful and ignorant, is obnoxiously boring. Another topic for another thread probably. I was able to read Leviticus in its context, and appreciate fairly well the historical circumstance, and doing so hasn't really helped me to buy into it anymore.

As a side note, atheist manage to get along without abusing sex and drugs just fine. I'm the pretty typical atheist in that I am in a monogamous relationship and don't have any prevailing addictions. Not that there is anything wrong with sex and drugs though, just don't let it rule your life. Or do let it rule your life if you want to. Another topic for another thread probably.
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03-05-2014, 10:36 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 10:26 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Your view of Christians and intolerance is not an uncommon one. This view needs to be corrected.

I got my view of christian tolerance from my family... or lack of.

... most of whom disappeared in the late 1930s and early 1940s in christian correctional facilities.

Angel

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03-05-2014, 10:45 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 10:29 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 10:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God hates gays?

The Bibles states this where?

You are way off here with much of what you have stated about the Bible. This is your main problem.

Homosexuality is condemned not only in Leviticus but also in the NT. On this you are wrong as well. In fact no less than Jesus Himself gives us the ideal for marriage and it is between a man and a woman, as it was in the beginning. Paul also confirms that homosexuality is a sin, among other things.

The problem is that men love pleasure more than they love God. It is not too hard to see. It has been written and the long line of historical events bears this out.

Men and women love having sex and pleasure with one another, love drinking and getting drunk, love using drugs and partying and using and abusing one another for their own lustful enterprises. I know, I did it for years. Always burning and craving more, more pleasure, more more more....burning, being consumed and inflamed by it till my whole life was about pleasure, about feeling good..

You paint the bible as some old useless thing. Good for nothing except maybe a paper-weight, or a book-end.

You do not care to read its writings in their context. You do not try to take into consideration the times and places in which its writing were compiled. You open it up, find something you think don't fit, say AHA! close it up and throw it to the side.

The vast majority of pleasure seeking men and women just stay away from it. Trust me. They already know it condemns their lifestyle. The obstinate and obdurate make sport out of criticizing it. They get pleasure from this, that is why they do it.

Those who commit sin are slaves to sin.

The malady of the atheist is that he thinks he is free, but he, like Samson, is not only blind, but bound by the iron shackles of sin that hold him fast.

His greatest weakness lies in his pride which blinds him to his true state.

I am not keen on sermons, but I do love arguments. If you put any of that in the form of an argument than we can keep having a discussion.

As for reading the bible, I have tried and got pretty far into it. I would have finished, but the book, worse than being hateful and ignorant, is obnoxiously boring. Another topic for another thread probably. I was able to read Leviticus in its context, and appreciate fairly well the historical circumstance, and doing so hasn't really helped me to buy into it anymore.

As a side note, atheist manage to get along without abusing sex and drugs just fine. I'm the pretty typical atheist in that I am in a monogamous relationship and don't have any prevailing addictions. Not that there is anything wrong with sex and drugs though, just don't let it rule your life. Or do let it rule your life if you want to. Another topic for another thread probably.

Arguments do not tend to make a man more virtuous or facilitate in the establishment of character and righteous living.

They tend to facilitate in disputes about things that are not edifying to the soul's health. The same applies to inordinate desires for knowledge.

“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.” C.S. Lewis spoke these words and I think a man of his learning would know something about it.

Often in my discussions with those that are unbelievers I neglect to speak about the integral and rather obvious (at least obvious to me) aspect of God's work in the heart of a man prior to his regeneration. Much will be said about man and his state and little about the work of God in the heart of the man. Much will be said about the mind and little of the heart.

I find myself being led to emphasize that now more than ever before. This is so because it has become evident to me that knowledge alone cannot satisfy a man's deepest innermost longings. The thirst, sometimes unquenchable, for knowledge and insight is like the thirst one has for sex when their members are aroused by some external stimulus or internal thought. Or like the thirst one has for another drink after he has sat long at the bar. Or the desire to have one more injection of morphine, or snort of coke. It is thought in all of these aforementioned scenarios, that "one more" will "do me good". Only to find that when had, that "one more" was not enough. Instead of fulfilling that longing, that craving, it rather, has left one craving only more.

I converse often with those the world would deem as intellectuals in my daily life. Ultimately their stories all contain that underlying thread woven within them. The thread of emptiness and longing.

Meaninglessness my friend, comes not from being weary of pain, but rather, of pleasure.

Do you know what I mean?
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03-05-2014, 10:55 PM
RE: I just need to vent
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03-05-2014, 11:01 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 10:45 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 10:29 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I am not keen on sermons, but I do love arguments. If you put any of that in the form of an argument than we can keep having a discussion.

As for reading the bible, I have tried and got pretty far into it. I would have finished, but the book, worse than being hateful and ignorant, is obnoxiously boring. Another topic for another thread probably. I was able to read Leviticus in its context, and appreciate fairly well the historical circumstance, and doing so hasn't really helped me to buy into it anymore.

As a side note, atheist manage to get along without abusing sex and drugs just fine. I'm the pretty typical atheist in that I am in a monogamous relationship and don't have any prevailing addictions. Not that there is anything wrong with sex and drugs though, just don't let it rule your life. Or do let it rule your life if you want to. Another topic for another thread probably.

Arguments do not tend to make a man more virtuous or facilitate in the establishment of character and righteous living.

They tend to facilitate in disputes about things that are not edifying to the soul's health. The same applies to inordinate desires for knowledge.

“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.” C.S. Lewis spoke these words and I think a man of his learning would know something about it.

Often in my discussions with those that are unbelievers I neglect to speak about the integral and rather obvious (at least obvious to me) aspect of God's work in the heart of a man prior to his regeneration. Much will be said about man and his state and little about the work of God in the heart of the man. Much will be said about the mind and little of the heart.

I find myself being led to emphasize that now more than ever before. This is so because it has become evident to me that knowledge alone cannot satisfy a man's deepest innermost longings. The thirst, sometimes unquenchable, for knowledge and insight is like the thirst one has for sex when their members are aroused by some external stimulus or internal thought. Or like the thirst one has for another drink after he has sat long at the bar. Or the desire to have one more injection of morphine, or snort of coke. It is thought in all of these aforementioned scenarios, that "one more" will "do me good". Only to find that when had, that "one more" was not enough. Instead of fulfilling that longing, that craving, it rather, has left one craving only more.

I converse often with those the world would deem as intellectuals in my daily life. Ultimately their stories all contain that underlying thread woven within them. The thread of emptiness and longing.

Meaninglessness my friend, comes not from being weary of pain, but rather, of pleasure.

Do you know what I mean?

I am afraid I don't. The thirst for knowledge and insight pretty much drives nearly everything I do. If that is a sin or indulgence then I am pretty far enraptured by it and not keen to change that.

I have to challenge you, do you believe in god because the bible and Christianity offer the best and most sound explanation for our universe, or because it provides you comfort and you find meaning in it? I have a deep distrust of anyone who says knowledge is dangerous, and I can't help but feel like you are using the flimsiest of justifications so you don't have to think too hard, or answer some of the most difficult arguments. For my part, if you want me to believe what you believe, I require evidence and good reasoning. I don't really understand people who believe in something unless it justified with either or both evidence and good reasoning.
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03-05-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 10:36 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 10:26 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Your view of Christians and intolerance is not an uncommon one. This view needs to be corrected.

I got my view of christian tolerance from my family... or lack of.

... most of whom disappeared in the late 1930s and early 1940s in christian correctional facilities.

Angel

In common parlance today in America, tolerance has come to be understood to be synonymous with "acceptance", or "agreement". In this is demonstrated how a word can morph by virtue of its usage.

Tolerance means neither. Rather, the word tolerate means to put up with, or to bear with something one finds extremely unpleasant or even painful. To bear with something one disagrees with and to put up with it despite having a contrary disposition towards it.

This is what tolerance actually means. The phrase "she has a high tolerance for pain" is indicative of this. Pain here is something very disagreeable and uncomfortable and must be born patiently.

When Christians are accused of being intolerant, what they are actually being accused of is not agreeing with or accepting something i.e. abortion, or homosexual marriages. They are condemned for not accepting something they disagree with. Funny how most people do not give this a second thought when it comes to matters not dealing with current hot topic issues.

Who is condemned for not accepting something they disagree with? It used to be that not accepting something was simply evidence of not agreeing with it.

I am being very tolerant of many things I disagree with that are happening in this country. I tolerate them just because I disagree with them. For who tolerates that which is agreeable to him? I do not accept or agree that homosexual marriage is right. But I tolerate it. I live side by side with those who disagree with me. I work happily and respectfully with them. I love them. But I disagree with certain choices they make. If asked, I will state my views plainly and clearly with respect and love, but I do not feel guilty by stating my views. Nor am I acting in contradiction to the second greatest commandment given by Christ i.e. to love one's neighbor as one's self. For every homosexual in this world IS my neighbor. Every woman who promotes abortion IS my neighbor. I tolerate their views. I bear with them. I love them. But I disagree with their views. Jesus loved those who were robbing others by charging them exorbitant amounts of money in the temple. He did not agree with their dishonest business practices. He loved the woman caught in adultery. But told her after saving her, to go and sin no more. He bears with us. He puts up with us. He loves us. But He does not agree with anything or condone anything that we do that is wrong.

Are Christians sometimes guilty of being disrespectful and rude and hateful by speaking to people in a condemning way. Yes. I see it first hand. These will be judged by God for their deeds.

I can be a Christian and be tolerant and disagree with the sin that is being propagated in this country. I can do and be all of these things and still live in love.
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03-05-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The thirst for knowledge and insight pretty much drives nearly everything I do. If that is a sin or indulgence then I am pretty far enraptured by it and not keen to change that.

It is not a sin to have a thirst for knowledge. I too share this thirst. And it is indeed good to have it. God has given us minds and intellects to use and to learn and to explore. Anyone who tells you otherwise, is not telling you the truth.

(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have to challenge you, do you believe in god because the bible and Christianity offer the best and most sound explanation for our universe, or because it provides you comfort and you find meaning in it?

I believe in God for neither of those reasons chiefly, however I agree with both. I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my mother. Because I know her personally. All my life she has tried to be there for me, to care for me as best she could. The difference is that God has never failed me and has always been there for me. I believe in Him like I believe in the Sun. Not because I can see Him directly, but because by Him, all things are made visible to me. C.S. Lewis once said something to this effect.


(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have a deep distrust of anyone who says knowledge is dangerous,

Knowledge in and of itself is no more dangerous than a loaded gun is dangerous in and of itself. Neither can do harm to anyone unless one takes them and uses them in a harmful manner.

(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  and I can't help but feel like you are using the flimsiest of justifications so you don't have to think too hard, or answer some of the most difficult arguments.

The most difficult argument any Christian must deal with is the existential problem of evil and suffering in the world. The other arguments really are nothing substantial and boast nothing that has not been dealt with for some centuries now. The problem of evil is something I am acquainted with intimately by virtue of experience, so I have no trouble in talking about it.




(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  For my part, if you want me to believe what you believe, I require evidence and good reasoning. I don't really understand people who believe in something unless it justified with either or both evidence and good reasoning.

I required and do require the same. Every other skeptic who has given their life to Christ has required the same as well, once again Lewis comes to mind. Thomas is the disciple representative of us. And Jesus met him right where he was and gave him what he needed in order to believe. We do not live in Thomas's time, where we can touch the risen Christ, but Christ is not limited or restrained in reaching skeptics by virtue of this. The long line of skeptical intellectuals who have been born from above over the centuries are a testament to this.
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03-05-2014, 11:24 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 11:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 10:36 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I got my view of christian tolerance from my family... or lack of.

... most of whom disappeared in the late 1930s and early 1940s in christian correctional facilities.

Angel

In common parlance today in America,
...

Now you've got me angry.

How dare you suggest that I use Murikan parlance?!!!!!11!!!

Angry

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03-05-2014, 11:25 PM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 11:23 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The thirst for knowledge and insight pretty much drives nearly everything I do. If that is a sin or indulgence then I am pretty far enraptured by it and not keen to change that.

It is not a sin to have a thirst for knowledge. I too share this thirst. And it is indeed good to have it. God has given us minds and intellects to use and to learn and to explore. Anyone who tells you otherwise, is not telling you the truth.

(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have to challenge you, do you believe in god because the bible and Christianity offer the best and most sound explanation for our universe, or because it provides you comfort and you find meaning in it?

I believe in God for neither of those reasons chiefly, however I agree with both. I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my mother. Because I know her personally. All my life she has tried to be there for me, to care for me as best she could. The difference is that God has never failed me and has always been there for me. I believe in Him like I believe in the Sun. Not because I can see Him directly, but because by Him, all things are made visible to me. C.S. Lewis once said something to this effect.


(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have a deep distrust of anyone who says knowledge is dangerous,

Knowledge in and of itself is no more dangerous than a loaded gun is dangerous in and of itself. Neither can do harm to anyone unless one takes them and uses them in a harmful manner.

(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  and I can't help but feel like you are using the flimsiest of justifications so you don't have to think too hard, or answer some of the most difficult arguments.

The most difficult argument any Christian must deal with is the existential problem of evil and suffering in the world. The other arguments really are nothing substantial and boast nothing that has not been dealt with for some centuries now. The problem of evil is something I am acquainted with intimately by virtue of experience, so I have no trouble in talking about it.




(03-05-2014 11:01 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  For my part, if you want me to believe what you believe, I require evidence and good reasoning. I don't really understand people who believe in something unless it justified with either or both evidence and good reasoning.

I required and do require the same. Every other skeptic who has given their life to Christ has required the same as well, once again Lewis comes to mind. Thomas is the disciple representative of us. And Jesus met him right where he was and gave him what he needed in order to believe. We do not live in Thomas's time, where we can touch the risen Christ, but Christ is not limited or restrained in reaching skeptics by virtue of this. The long line of skeptical intellectuals who have been born from above over the centuries are a testament to this.

I would be very interested to hear your arguments then. I made some points in previous posts you didn't address, I think that may be a good place to start.
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04-05-2014, 12:43 AM
RE: I just need to vent
(03-05-2014 09:48 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  A moral argument is more complicated than that.

No, it's really not. You may state an ultimate provider of moral authority, I'll just stick with my day to day reality. I'm sure we''ll meet in the middle someday. God bless.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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