I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
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19-03-2012, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2012 05:57 PM by JFReyes.)
I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
I decided to spawn a new thread as my old one I'm not an atheist but am fed up with the BS of organized religion kept being sidetracked by posters with personal feuds and nonsense not related to the original subject; bottom line I didn't get many suggestions.

Thanks @DLJ for recommending the book; it was a very good read. It refreshed my mind about stuff I've kept track of for a long time through news and articles, but had not seen in a single reference for a while.

I understand and agree with most of it except the part about the electron-positron pair arising out of empty space and being unmeasurable due to the Heisenberg principle - I think it's a cop out. Had the author expressed it was a gut feeling or a speculation I would have swallowed it hook, line and sinker (I think that's the expression :-) But no, he says it's fact. He knows a lot more about physics than me, but I'm not completely ignorant and I don't believe him because he doesn't provide credible evidence. And Heisenberg is not "gospel"...

To answer one of the previous posters who asked "But my biggest question, if you are thinking with a scientific mind, why do assume to fill the gaps rather than recognise them simply as gaps?" my answer is that though I consider many of them to be gaps, in general it makes me sleep well at night - I'm only human.

Another previous poster wrote "Beyond the sandwich nonsense, deism is a fine position as long as you understand it's a god of the gaps position without expecting others to believe it.". No problem, I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say in this regard.

Constructive remarks are welcome...

José
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19-03-2012, 06:00 PM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
I watched the movie. Big Grin

Heisenberg is not gospel, but it is fundamental to QM and thus part of the most verified theory in science. Wink

And about the other stuff; this is only a part time serious forum. If peeps get annoying, throw a sparkly vampire at 'em.

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19-03-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
(19-03-2012 06:00 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I watched the movie. Big Grin

Heisenberg is not gospel, but it is fundamental to QM and thus part of the most verified theory in science. Wink

And about the other stuff; this is only a part time serious forum. If peeps get annoying, throw a sparkly vampire at 'em.

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19-03-2012, 08:50 PM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
The first step to atheism seems to become feed up with religion.
There are those who claim to separate religion from belief in god.
I'm not so convinced this is possible.
Religion is God, and God is religion.
Through religion we create the gods and they are woven into the myths.
Enjoy your journey.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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19-03-2012, 09:24 PM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
"The Quantum Universe (And Why Anything That Can Happen, Does)"

This book delineates quantum mechanics more thoroughly. I think krauss couldn't spend a lot of time going so deep into the theoretical framework of QM. The knowledge is esoteric and concepts are difficult to grasp since they defy common logic (it's quantum mechanics what do you expect). I think Krauss would have been deviating from his main topic if he started to explain QM to the laymen. Anyways i digress, I read The Quantum Universe after A Universe From Nothing, which by the way was phenomenal, and it helped me conceptualize what Krauss was saying. So give it a shot and see if you still think it's a "cop out"
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19-03-2012, 10:27 PM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
(19-03-2012 05:43 PM)JFReyes Wrote:  To answer one of the previous posters who asked "But my biggest question, if you are thinking with a scientific mind, why do assume to fill the gaps rather than recognise them simply as gaps?" my answer is that though I consider many of them to be gaps, in general it makes me sleep well at night - I'm only human.

Essentially, when we look at these sorts of gaps, these are indeed thoughts and insight into what we think something is. I think the other reason they fill these gaps with things such as the principle is because perhaps at this time there may not be a better explanation. It is after all, curiosity, skepticism, speculation, and thought process that gets us to consider something in the first place. To begin with testing something, we must first have an idea of what we imagine it to be. If we test and observe it isn't the case, then our principle or theory is not correct and we must go back to the drawing board.

A good scientist would recognize something as a gap and just a gap and conclude it can't be explained at this time.. Unless of course, you have an idea or think you know what it may be in which case we speculate or apply a principle until we can determine otherwise.

Krauss is a very intelligent fellow, but also a theoretical physicist, I think often this leads to thoughts, speculation, suggestions and what we think things may be since they have ways of explaining things. But we can still call them gaps. Because ultimately, no one yet has ALL of the answers.

At least, that's the best way that I can explain it from my way of understanding.
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20-03-2012, 12:23 AM
 
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
It doesn't matter if Krauss is right or not. I read the book as well. It's nothing but speculation. Nevertheless, it's necessary speculation for the atheist. Because remember, when you get rid of God, you end up with all the gaps that God previously filled. Now you have to fill them with theoretical cosmology and physics.

Not regular cosmology or physics, mind you. Those branches of science have nothing to do with God, per se. They are sciences. They classify and make predictions based on the classification of observations of the natural world. That’s all. Plumbing does the same thing with clean and dirty water.

No, atheists must replace God. The new theology for this is theoretical cosmology, theoretical physics and theoretical evolutionary biology. In other words, speculation.

One of the biggest...oh what’s the word...chasms that atheistic theology must bridge is the "something from nothing debate." Veridican theology solves that problem because we consider God to be the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. But Christianity struggles with it, and so too must atheism.

Stuff came from somewhere, and we know it didn’t just suddenly appear in nothingness for no reason. The human mind can’t even accept that as an answer. It appears God hardwired us against that little philosophical copout.

So, Krauss is a pioneer. Eventually, there will be a good speculation you can all sign on to regarding how something can come into existence from nothing. It will be BS of course, but when did that ever stop atheists? By the way, Krauss doesn’t comprehend nothingness in his book. He simply redefines the vacuum of space as “nothing.” But the vacuum of space is not nothing. Sorry to burst that particular bubble.
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20-03-2012, 12:47 AM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
(20-03-2012 12:23 AM)Egor Wrote:  Nevertheless, it's necessary speculation for the atheist. Because remember, when you get rid of God, you end up with all the gaps that God previously filled.

The god of the gaps argument is just that. Filling in a gap with something. If you can't explain it, you give it a defining meaning or explanation. So you can say that someone replaces god with something else... or you can say that someone wishes to explain that something else with god.

I think you are also assuming that all atheists are specifically looking for a reason not to find a god. I think that's a bit overzealous, not everyone is looking for reasons to find a reason otherwise. Some are just looking for something compelling. As DeGrasse said: The god of the gaps argument is that what can't be explained must be god. When we finally can explain something, that gap gets smaller and is becoming an ever receding pocket that gets smaller and smaller.
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20-03-2012, 12:59 AM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
(20-03-2012 12:23 AM)Egor Wrote:  It doesn't matter if Krauss is right or not. I read the book as well. It's nothing but speculation. Nevertheless, it's necessary speculation for the atheist. Because remember, when you get rid of God, you end up with all the gaps that God previously filled. Now you have to fill them with theoretical cosmology and physics.

I only see that as a good thing. Putting god in everything we don't understand would leave us in the dark ages. There would be no strive for learning. There would be no development of knowledge. There would just be ignorance.

If this speculation leads to greater things, the so be it. If we never find the answer, then so be it. If becoming an atheist made me appreciate the amount I don't actually know and forced me to start learning and making sense of reality then It's the greatest thing I've ever done.

Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.


Enlightenment is liberating.
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20-03-2012, 02:17 AM
RE: I just read the L. Krauss book "A Universe from Nothing"
(20-03-2012 12:23 AM)Egor Wrote:  Because remember, when you get rid of God, you end up with all the gaps that God previously filled. Now you have to fill them with theoretical cosmology and physics.

"Well sure you can use grease on the car engine, but then you'd have to remove all the peanut butter I've jammed in there to fill the gaps. Do your really want to remove all that peanut butter?"

-Egor's proof of God (broken down into layman's terms)


Btw, my gaps were never filled with a god. I just slowly closed the gaps with knowledge. You can't just get mad that your 1000 piece puzzle is too difficult, pour a milkshake on it, and claim success because the gaps are all filled in. You have to actually find the appropriate pieces. Krauss is simply presenting us with a puzzle piece so we can see if it fits.



P.S. Leave it to Egor to sidetrack a thread specifically created because the last one got sidetracked (not purposely of course, it's just that everyone will now be responding to Egor and not the OP).

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