I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-04-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
Thank you very much to everyone who has replied to this thread so far. One thing I that I have observed, much to my surprise, is how active and helpful the folks are on this forum are. It is really appreciated and is making this journey easier for me.

A few follow-ups...

TheBeardedDude Wrote:I don't what role (if any) I played in that, but I didn't beat them over the head with any arguments, I just let the conversations come naturally and stayed respectful while pointing out the inconsistencies and problems with religious thinking.

I agree that this is likely the best approach with someone you actually care about. I really do not intend to try to convert her to my way of thinking. The conversation we had was a direct result of my coming out to my wife this weekend. I will likely wait on her to bring it back up. We will have to have a conversation on how we will approach this with the children.

(Tangent: The fact that I chose Easter weekend to admit my apostasy is mostly coincidence of timing due to my wife having been anxious and pre-occupied with some exams that happened to have concluded just before Easter. I won't deny, though, that it was at least subconsciously influenced by the increased religious blather leading up to this Easter that has served to bring my internal crisis of conscience to a head.)

EvolutionKills Wrote:Have fun schooling her in the consensus of archaeologist, cultural anthropologist, and mainline biblical scholarship.

Indeed. I have a lot to learn first and I will need to have my ducks in a row. This is one area that, even if I am able put together somewhat concise summary of evidence and implications, I will have to convince her that it is worth her time and patience to study the topic. I have ordered a copy of Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus and plan to work through that before I even attempt the subject with her. Any recommendations for study on the topic are appreciated.

EvolutionKills Wrote:Well, that's fairly petty and fucking childish.

I think it was meant to be more of a rhetorical device. Smartass

EvolutionKills Wrote:I have doubts, any rational person who values truth would do well to always be willing to question everything, to doubt anything if necessary.

Very good point. This was my turn to use a rhetorical device. I was really responding to her inference that I am only experiencing common, insignificant doubts about my faith, when, in fact, I am much farther along the path of reason than mere "doubts".

Timber1025 Wrote:To approach this subject is scary and confusing, and contradicts what she was taught her whole life.

Bingo!

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2015, 10:12 PM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
(07-04-2015 05:48 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  
EvolutionKills Wrote:Have fun schooling her in the consensus of archaeologist, cultural anthropologist, and mainline biblical scholarship.
Indeed. I have a lot to learn first and I will need to have my ducks in a row. This is one area that, even if I am able put together somewhat concise summary of evidence and implications, I will have to convince her that it is worth her time and patience to study the topic. I have ordered a copy of Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus and plan to work through that before I even attempt the subject with her. Any recommendations for study on the topic are appreciated.


Just be careful with that one. Form a tactical perspective, it might be easier for her to transition from 'Jesus is Lord' to 'Jesus was a man' instead of going right for 'Jesus probably never existed'. Plus that doesn't cover the history of god, which is useful for undermining the whole venture. Better yet, start with critical thinking and the evaluation of evidence, and undermine all super-naturalism; deities included.




























(07-04-2015 05:48 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  
EvolutionKills Wrote:Well, that's fairly petty and fucking childish.
I think it was meant to be more of a rhetorical device. Smartass


But of course. Wink



(07-04-2015 05:48 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  
EvolutionKills Wrote:I have doubts, any rational person who values truth would do well to always be willing to question everything, to doubt anything if necessary.
Very good point. This was my turn to use a rhetorical device. I was really responding to her inference that I am only experiencing common, insignificant doubts about my faith, when, in fact, I am much farther along the path of reason than mere "doubts".

[Image: maxresdefault.png]

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2015, 10:50 PM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
I am so grateful my wife and I are on the same page and deconverted together.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
(07-04-2015 09:01 AM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Jesus... The Biblical account of Jesus/Christianity must be real because no one making up a religion would do such a bad job. If someone had made it all up, as I claim, why wouldn't they have a created better, more believable story? She would be more worried if it were perfect? Seriously, she is a smart person, but I know intuitively that this is a bad argument. However, I do not know how to answer it.

Ok, she admits it all seems like bunk (yay!), but is still not ready to abandon her faith. (boo!)

She lives in a world where Twilight and Fifty Shades became huge, huge hits: the idea that terrible fiction could become popular should not be blowing her mind. That alone is enough to dismantle that argument, but also, she's assuming the biblical account to be this instantaneous creation of a single author, which is strange because we know for a fact that it isn't. Just leaving aside the multiple books, we also know the church has an extended history of editing and selectively deciding what the canonical gospels are. The new testament, as it is now, is not the same set of works as the author originally conceived; centuries of meddling with the content could easily produce a shitty story. Moreover, we also have no way of knowing that only a singular person wrote each gospel, as the authors are all anonymous, nor do we know what changed between the initial writing and the point at which the book became publicly available. The idea that the new testament is some unified vision is an unjustified assumption that is directly contradicted by what we know of history.

Quote:Morality... Morality is grounded by the presence of God in our lives. My recent development of potty mouth serves as adequate proof of that assertion.

How did she determine that god was good? If she's using god's standard, she's engaging in a circular argument. If she's using some other standard, then morality cannot be grounded in god.

Quote:Peace and comfort... My inner turmoil is a direct result of my abandoning God - not, as I claim, the result of keeping an important secret from my wife. The sadness that I feel at giving up my security blanket (or binkey, or whatever) is not a natural phenomenon but a manifestation of my spirit longing to return to God's presence.

She doesn't get to dictate to you what you're feeling or why, and frankly she's being horrendously rude by doing so.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
(08-04-2015 10:16 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  She doesn't get to dictate to you what you're feeling or why, and frankly she's being horrendously rude by doing so.

Esquilax

I'm not sure this sort of comment is helpful. TB's wife has just found out that TB has rejected a way of thought she and he had followed for years. His disclosure has probably shaken her to the core. But what she's trying to do (IMO) is to simply rationalize recent events.

I find it very understandable.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2015, 06:20 PM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
(09-04-2015 03:23 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 10:16 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  She doesn't get to dictate to you what you're feeling or why, and frankly she's being horrendously rude by doing so.

Esquilax

I'm not sure this sort of comment is helpful. TB's wife has just found out that TB has rejected a way of thought she and he had followed for years. His disclosure has probably shaken her to the core. But what she's trying to do (IMO) is to simply rationalize recent events.

I find it very understandable.

It's understandable, but also entirely unproductive when trying to talk through that disclosure and properly communicate with her husband. I've seen too many theists latch onto ideas like that so strongly because it makes them feel better about their own beliefs and the apostasy of their loved one to give such claims any quarter. I'm certainly not saying TB should phrase his response the way I did, no doubt he will be as tactful as befits a discussion with his wife, but it is something that should be quashed before it settles in her mind, too. There are ways to get this point across, that second guessing someone's stated thoughts is overly aggressive and unhelpful, without turning it into a fight, after all.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
(09-04-2015 06:20 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(09-04-2015 03:23 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  Esquilax

I'm not sure this sort of comment is helpful. TB's wife has just found out that TB has rejected a way of thought she and he had followed for years. His disclosure has probably shaken her to the core. But what she's trying to do (IMO) is to simply rationalize recent events.

I find it very understandable.

It's understandable, but also entirely unproductive when trying to talk through that disclosure and properly communicate with her husband. I've seen too many theists latch onto ideas like that so strongly because it makes them feel better about their own beliefs and the apostasy of their loved one to give such claims any quarter. I'm certainly not saying TB should phrase his response the way I did, no doubt he will be as tactful as befits a discussion with his wife, but it is something that should be quashed before it settles in her mind, too. There are ways to get this point across, that second guessing someone's stated thoughts is overly aggressive and unhelpful, without turning it into a fight, after all.

(skip to the bottom for the TL;DR version)

There have been several responses to some of the wifey's more emotional, knee-jerk reactions to my coming out to her. I am not the least bit offended by the reactions, honestly, as they are exactly the types of reactions I would expect from an unconnected (not necessarily objective) third-party "observing" this conversation. In fact, given my personal bias and emotional connection towards my wife, seeing these comments help me to evaluate the conversation more objectively by providing a range of interpretations of what was said.

Yes, she responded poorly, in my opinion, towards the end of the conversation as she ran out of logical arguments and became frustrated and emotional. While frustration doesn't excuse poor behavior, it does help to explain the source of it and is useful in determining a proper response. Addressing the source of her frustrations (fear, cognitive dissonance, regret and sadness, etc.) will be more effective than addressing the behavior it manifests.

Sometimes, however, the behavior itself must be addressed if it becomes a pattern or a weapon in what should otherwise be calm and lucid discussion. In that case, one must be able to calmly articulate the unproductive coping mechanism, its negative effects, and the desired modifications.

TL;DR... I'm not offended if you think my wife was mean to me and say so. I can handle it - her and the responses. I just appreciate the feedback. Thanks!!

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2015, 03:53 PM
RE: I know it was God because I wouldn't have thought of that...
(09-04-2015 06:20 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  [SNIP]

It's understandable, but also entirely unproductive...

[BIG SNIP]

People are unproductive when they receive bad news. Your mum dies unexpectedly...you go into shock...planes fly into buildings in New York...we all went into shock...your husband reveals he no longer shares your religious belief...you go into shock.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: