I like shooting down Bible contradictions
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13-11-2011, 03:17 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(13-11-2011 01:30 PM)megamaster125 Wrote:  You ask a valid question, but since I'm not God I can't really give you a good answer for that.
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...in my mind, there was a dogfight? Now there's a trail of smoke coming out of the Christian's Spitfire... Big Grin

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13-11-2011, 06:17 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(13-11-2011 01:30 PM)megamaster125 Wrote:  ...I showed how Exodus 20:5 is consistent and not contradictory to Ezekiel 18:20 (or at least, that's what I'm trying to show). And as Ezekiel 18 is saying, the idea that a father's sins get passed down to his children is a false idea that was passed down through the years.

Well, we shouldn't be too hard poor Ezekiel for putting stock in that old proverb, what seeing as how many generations the sin of eating a forbidden fruit had been passed down to and all. Understandable, no?
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13-11-2011, 06:26 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
This thread is starting to look like the olympics.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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13-11-2011, 06:33 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2011 06:45 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(13-11-2011 06:26 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  This thread is starting to look like the olympics.

Time to make the popcorn?
(12-11-2011 07:59 PM)megamaster125 Wrote:  In order for there to actually be a contradiction, there should be no way of explaining my way out of it. And I'm not going to try and use phrases like "why can't it be both?" because that isn't even good enough for me. Why would I expect it to be good enough for you. Instead of just stopping with saying it could be both, I aim to go a step further and show how it can be both.



Well, I'm going to follow the format of my website (so I can copy/paste it there later when I make a page for this). I always start by quoting the Bible verses in question, from my personal NIV Bible. I always find it a bit mischeiveous when atheists quote Bible verses at me. Wink

For this one in particular, I can see the contradiction starting to fall apart just by looking at the verses.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:5

The claim: Exodus says that the sin of the previous generation will get passed down to the children, who will also get punished for it. Ezekiel says that the son of the father who sins will not be punished for their father's sins.

The explaination: The entire chapter of Ezekiel 18 is about a proverb that will no longer be getting passed down. This proverb is "the fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," which is found in verse 2. This proverb is saying that the sins of the father are passed down to his children. The context of Ezekiel 18:2 is God asking why this proverb has been getting passed down.

The whole purpose of Ezekiel 18 is to say that the soul that sins in the one who will die (verse 20). This is actually consistent with what Exodus 20:5 is saying. Exodus 20:5 says, "punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." This statement is saying that the children of the third and fourth generation also hate God. In other words, the children are sharing in the same sin. For instance, the father is worshiping a false idol (or whatever sin). The third and fourth generation is also worshiping this false idol (or whatever sin). In this case, since the third and fourth generation is practicing this sin, they will be punished because they were practicing it, not because their fathers were.

Exodus 20:5 goes on to say, "showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments," and this is consistent with Ezekiel 18:20. There is no contradiction.




Btw, I'd like to bring the topic back to Ezekiel 18:20 and Exodus 20:5. I gave an explaination about how they're not contradictions, and no one has really disputed that. Does anyone have a dispute or problem with my explaination? If there's nothing else to be said, I'll just add the current explaination to my website and classify this as not a contradiction.

The scientific method in action, peeps. Observation, hypothesis, theory. Big Grin

Conclusion: Jesus is a false idol. Well, duh! Glad we were able to help. Big Grin

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13-11-2011, 07:23 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(13-11-2011 01:30 PM)megamaster125 Wrote:  Well, there are some instances where all the specific details are not given by the Bible, so it's hard to determine what exactly happened and the order of it happening, like the women and the empty tomb (which I'll address at a later time, I'm a bit busy right now to go into all of that).
Confused
But to answer your question, I don't know why it was written like that, that's just how it is.
Sad
You ask a valid question, but since I'm not God I can't really give you a good answer for that. Sorry. All I can say is that God's ways are not like our own. We don't have to understand everything about God in order to believe in him. I don't understand everything about how my cell phone works, how each of the little parts work together, etc. But I do trust that my cell phone works.
Huh

Hmm. Well.
Wink Good luck with that website.

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13-11-2011, 08:02 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
I'm thinking all Christians come hard-wired with a self-destruct sequence they can't help but trip. Serious lack of Intelligence in that Design. Tongue

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13-11-2011, 08:37 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2011 08:54 PM by ddrew.)
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(12-11-2011 03:37 PM)megamaster125 Wrote:  I always get people telling me that the Bible is filled with contradictions, but I have yet to find an actual contradiction. So, if you each had to pick one alleged contradiction, which would it be? (yes, I'm aware of the big list on this site, but I can't address them all simultaneously, hence this topic)

okay here is where God killed ALL the cattle... there is no way to take what is being said (out of context). It's plain cut and dry what it says.

Exodus 9:3-6
Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. ... And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died.

Wait!!! Hold on .. God had an unknown secret side plan... apparently he saved a few of them wretched cattle to kill later on.. mainly their first borns! Yeah .. God has a thing for killing first borns.. What a loving God eh??

Exodus 9:19
Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

Exodus 12:29
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

All them innocent first borns both man and beast... ..oh did I use the word innocent? I forgot they are bearing the sins of Adam. GUILTY!! Kill em' All! ... Seek and Destroy!! ...

screaming "fuckin' MetallicA..."

starts to head-bang


Fuck Yeah!...

sorry got carried away with the killings and things
hehe... time for another beer Big Grin
oh hey found a video on the contradiction i posted on ^^^

http://youtu.be/cXrIO8xpNn8

enjoy!!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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13-11-2011, 10:18 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2011 10:46 PM by megamaster125.)
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(13-11-2011 06:17 PM)Eye Sage Wrote:  Well, we shouldn't be too hard poor Ezekiel for putting stock in that old proverb, what seeing as how many generations the sin of eating a forbidden fruit had been passed down to and all. Understandable, no?

Orignal sin is kinda a different subject entriely. Original sin is really just the nature of man to want to disobey God.

To give a practical analogy, a child that is born doesn't obey everything you say (if it did that would be kinda weird). You have to teach the child to obey you.


(13-11-2011 06:26 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  This thread is starting to look like the olympics.

Well, as long as I look like a professional olympist, right? Big Grin

Quote:The scientific method in action, peeps. Observation, hypothesis, theory. Big Grin

Conclusion: Jesus is a false idol. Well, duh! Glad we were able to help. Big Grin

Not really sure how you got that conclusion, given how Jesus was in Genesis 1. In fact, the old testament is all about Jesus.

(13-11-2011 07:23 PM)kim Wrote:  
(13-11-2011 01:30 PM)megamaster125 Wrote:  Well, there are some instances where all the specific details are not given by the Bible, so it's hard to determine what exactly happened and the order of it happening, like the women and the empty tomb (which I'll address at a later time, I'm a bit busy right now to go into all of that).
Confused
But to answer your question, I don't know why it was written like that, that's just how it is.
Sad
You ask a valid question, but since I'm not God I can't really give you a good answer for that. Sorry. All I can say is that God's ways are not like our own. We don't have to understand everything about God in order to believe in him. I don't understand everything about how my cell phone works, how each of the little parts work together, etc. But I do trust that my cell phone works.
Huh

Hmm. Well.
Wink Good luck with that website.

Well, this is pretty much quoting me out of context, which all looks pretty silly when you don't quote what each of those was a response to. I could do that same for any science textbook. Pull out a couple sentences from different parts of the book, line them up side-by-side, and make them look foolish.

(13-11-2011 08:37 PM)ddrew Wrote:  All them innocent first borns both man and beast... ..oh did I use the word innocent? I forgot they are bearing the sins of Adam. GUILTY!! Kill em' All! ... Seek and Destroy!! ...

You talk as if the oppressive slavery being imposed by the egyptians wasn't bad at all.

Quote:oh hey found a video on the contradiction i posted on ^^^

http://youtu.be/cXrIO8xpNn8

enjoy!!

I'll add it to my to-do list. I'll write up the one for the women and the tomb tomorrow, I feel that's going to be quite a long explainations, with lots of technicalities. You guys like technicalities, right?

In the meantime, I'm not seeing any direct disputes to counter my explaination of ezekiel 18:20 and exodus 20:5.

(12-11-2011 09:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Let's see you shoot down any of these.

God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness

1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13

20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21


If that's not enough, there are more at : http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/j...tions.html

The definition of a contradiction is : "In classical logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. It occurs when the propositions, taken together, yield two conclusions which form the logical, usually opposite inversions of each other. Illustrating a general tendency in applied logic, Aristotle’s law of noncontradiction states that “One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time.”

You don't get to make up your own definition. Sorry. Cheers. Cool

Wow, somehow I didn't see this post the first time (happened to the last post on the second page). Don't expect me to answer all of these right now, but I will add them to my list. I know the solutions to some of those allready, but I'll do formal write-ups for my site.

For the first one, God is pleased vs. God is displeased, both verses are clearly taken out of context. First of all, you didn't quote what the Bible says God was pleased or displeased about. Secondly, Is it possible to be pleased at one point in time, and then displeased at another point in time? Is is possible to be happy today, and sad tomorrow? If you answered yes to either of those (psst, they're retorical questions, the answer is yes Wink ), then this is blatently not a contradiction. I'll do a more formal write-up for this later, as well as address the others.

Also, I'm not making up my own definition of a contradiction. "In classical logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions." I'm showing how they're not logical incompatibilities, which is what I've already done so far with Ezekiel 18:20 and Exodus 20:5.
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13-11-2011, 11:37 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2011 12:04 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
"God" did not "create" anything. As I am sure you know from your physics classes, space-time BEGAN at the Big Bang. If there were a deity which BEGAN the creative act, BEFORE space-time was created, then time would already have had to exist, or there would be no "before" in which to start the act. It's all illogical nonsense.

While I'm at it, here's some more contradictions :

1. In Mark Jesus dies on the day of passover, in John, he dies on the Day of Preparation.

2. Luke says that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod, and that he put to death a number of children, (which is recorded NOWHERE in history), and that it occured while Quirinius was Governor of Syria. Quirinius did not become Governor of Syria, until 10 years AFTER the death of Herod.

3. Matthew spends the entire Chapter 1, establishing the lineage of Jesus through Joseph, (the Davidic line), and then says, Joseph was NOT the father ??

4. Where was Jesus the day after his baptism ? Depends on which gospel you read.

5. Who went to the tomb to see it "empty" ?
a. Was it Mary alone, (John) ?
b. Was it 2 Marys, (Matthew) ?
c. Was it 2 different Marys, (Mark) ?
d. was it other women, (Luke) ?

6. When they got there, what did they see ?
a. A stone already rolled away ?
b. An angel ? (Matthew)
c. A young man ? (Mark)
d. Two men ? (Luke) ?
e. Nothing, and no one (John) ?

7. After Paul's conversion, Acts says he immediately went to Damascus, and then Jerusalem. In Gallations he says he is not lying that he did not go to Jerusalem for three years ??

That's enough for now I guess.
Cheers.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-11-2011, 12:22 AM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
Ok, a couple more now. It will take longer, since I'm checking the context and notes for all of them. I'm also including a couple of "biblical sillies" that are funny as well as wholly inaccurate scientifically.

1) Who is Joseph's dad? (Joseph as in Jesus' "dad").

Matthew 1:16 says his dad is Jacob
Luke 3:23 says his dad is Heli

2) Proverbs 26:4-5. "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest though also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." Which is it? Same chapter, back to back - no context problem here. I remember reading these and being utterly confused, even when I believed.

3) Jacob sees God face to face (Genesis 32:30), yet John 1:18 states that "No one has ever seen God; the only God [referencing Jesus, I presume based on context], who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." In other words, the author (John) is stating that no one has seen God (the Father) and that Jesus is making him known. Yet Jacob is supposed to have seen God face to face back in Genesis, even wrestled with him.

Silly #1) Snakes eat dirt, apparently. Genesis 3:14. Obviously, they don't - snakes are carnivores.

Silly #2) The Jews don't know their Pi: 1 Kings 7:23. "Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely." Actually, a line of 31.4159 cubits would be needed. Either their measuring tools were off by 1.4159 cubits (about a yard I think) in 30 cubits, pretty significant error, or they were flat out wrong.

Better without God, and happier too.
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