I like shooting down Bible contradictions
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14-11-2011, 02:32 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 02:24 PM)kim Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 12:13 PM)ddrew Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 10:34 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 09:06 AM)ddrew Wrote:  There is no God. Jesus wasn't real and Buddha is fat.
There seems to be some consensus that Siddhartha was actually lean. Wink
Yeah your right ... he was thin ... but I've seen pictures of him fat too. See there goes man again screwing with ideas of what their God is supposed to be.

Heart I loves me a fat Sid Buddha...

Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; he thinks too much: such men are dangerous.

(Julius Caesar Act I, Scene II) Will (or Edward Wink ) knew what he was talking about. Wink

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14-11-2011, 03:00 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 06:12 AM)Jakel Wrote:  The context is the creation of man. In genesis 1:31 God is pleased with his work, and genesis 6:6 says God has second thoughts about hes creation.

Of course people can change their minds. But we are talking about God here. He is supposed to know what he is doing, which he’s clearly not!

That's what gets me too, and always has bothered me. If God knows all (omniscient and omnipresent), he knows already the outcome of his creation before he starts. If he knows all of this before initiating creation, then he knows Adam and Eve will disobey, he knows he will have to curse man with death and pain, he knows that man will march toward the destruction of humanity. He knows that there will be blood, and death, and destruction uncounted. Pain will be experienced by every being on earth. Fear and horror will remain a part of the human conscience from start to finish, terrifying man in the dark of every night. People will be born into slavery and live as slaves for the entirety of their lives, as will their sons and daughters for generation after generation. Children will starve, will be slain even in their innocence, will even be raped and some sacrificed to please other gods. These things God knows will happen before he starts. Yet he moves forward with this plan of his- this painful, bloody plan and no other. This is the best possible scenario according to god. It must have been because he did not abandon it for another, and it is the reality in which we live.

God knows all of this, and he still does it. Maybe he doesn't make decisions for each and every person, but he knows this will happen. And he does it anyway. Because a few will believe in him.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." 14 "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

God knowingly initiates a creation in which the majority of his creation will enter the wide gate. The implication is that those that take the wide road will go to hell. Few will actually enter the narrow gate, unto life and heaven. God knowingly makes it difficult for people to understand his message, knowingly hides the evidence of his existence, knowingly creates a work which requires people to ignore the evidence that would be discovered thousands of years after the Bible was written. God knowingly creates individuals who will turn to sin, who suffer from extreme mental conditions which result in their complete instability, he knowingly creates individuals who are logical thinkers when presented with the evidence will not choose his illogical pathway, he knowingly sends people down the road to their destruction.

It's almost predetermined, but at the very least the outcome is known ahead of time- otherwise God is NOT all knowing and everywhere. Otherwise God has limits.

All of this, and God was pleased when he set about his creation. And then somehow, as if caught by surprise, he was displeased. How does God change his mind when he knows beforehand? It is really worth it to him to initiate creation knowing that most of his creation would deny him or never know of his existence, but at least a few would? Most people will go to hell, but a few will go to heaven and worship him, so it's worth it? He could have chosen not to create. He could have chosen to create differently.

The only answer to this is "who knows the mind of God?"

Certainly not his creation. Because he fails to explain himself. His message, if it is indeed his message (and my belief that it is has come to fail in light of this and many other reasons), is muddled and confusing at best. It requires years of study, focus, and energy. And even then you will reach no consistent conclusion with anyone else who spends years of focus and energy studying the same book. God does not explain himself. And so we are left half-blind trying to glean some measure of direction and understanding by reading an ancient book to each other and quoting lines of it back and forth believing that doing so will increase our knowledge. We spend years reading the same verses, making attempts to expound on them and fit them to current events or make them relevant to daily life in the modern age.

This is one of the major contradictions to simply the idea of God. Scripture-based or not, it is certainly not a profound idea. But it is still one for which I have yet to see a satisfactory answer. If God knew ahead of time that this would be the result, then why did he do it?
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14-11-2011, 03:08 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 03:00 PM)kineo Wrote:  The only answer to this is "who knows the mind of God?"
There's another atheist. That omni stuff merely leads to unprovable assumptions and indefensible positions.

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14-11-2011, 03:22 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 09:58 AM)megamaster125 Wrote:  Why is it ok for you guys to say "we don't have all the answers yet," but when I say "I can't fully understand God," you cry foul?

Because your claim insists on a very specific set of rigid requirements for which the only alternative is eternal damnation. If there is a God, then he must make himself known- he must explain himself to the inquiring minds. But, such a demand is said to be arrogant. Who is man to question God, the Creator? Well... man is the result of a choice by God to place them into existence with no choice of their own except to make the final choice- for or against God. That is the culmination of man's existence according to the religious- it's all about the choice. Freedom of will. Man didn't choose to be created, but man can choose either eternal life or eternal death. Yet we are expected to make this choice with unforgivably-little knowledge. Because to question- to ask for more knowledge, is sinful arrogance.

What are the implications for a universe emerged into existence apart from a Creator?
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14-11-2011, 04:30 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 03:22 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 09:58 AM)megamaster125 Wrote:  Why is it ok for you guys to say "we don't have all the answers yet," but when I say "I can't fully understand God," you cry foul?

Because your claim insists on a very specific set of rigid requirements for which the only alternative is eternal damnation. If there is a God, then he must make himself known- he must explain himself to the inquiring minds. But, such a demand is said to be arrogant. Who is man to question God, the Creator? Well... man is the result of a choice by God to place them into existence with no choice of their own except to make the final choice- for or against God. That is the culmination of man's existence according to the religious- it's all about the choice. Freedom of will. Man didn't choose to be created, but man can choose either eternal life or eternal death. Yet we are expected to make this choice with unforgivably-little knowledge. Because to question- to ask for more knowledge, is sinful arrogance.

What are the implications for a universe emerged into existence apart from a Creator?

Well... I for one won't cry foul.. it's not a game and you believe whatever gets you through the night.

Heart However... this man might help... he is far more able and eloquent than I ...

When I reach to the edge of the universe 
I do so knowing that along some paths of cosmic discovery 
there are times when, at least for now,
 one must be content to love the questions themselves. ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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14-11-2011, 04:31 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2011 04:43 PM by Azaraith.)
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 09:58 AM)megamaster125 Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 12:22 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  3) Jacob sees God face to face (Genesis 32:30), yet John 1:18 states that "No one has ever seen God; the only God [referencing Jesus, I presume based on context], who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." In other words, the author (John) is stating that no one has seen God (the Father) and that Jesus is making him known. Yet Jacob is supposed to have seen God face to face back in Genesis, even wrestled with him.

And here I thought you weren't taking things out of context. Another one I've already answered. Yay for more copy/paste from my site.

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Genesis 32:30

"But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Exodus 33:20

The Claim: Jacob saw God's face and lived, and this contradicts what Exodus 33:20 says.

The Explaination: This is one of those instances of taking a Bible verse out of context. In this case, it's Genesis 32:30 that is out of context. To remedy this, let's start by reading Genesis 32:22-30.

That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed ford of the Jabbok. After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Genesis 32:22-30

Ok, there's a lot going on here, so let's start by addressing verse 24, which says, "So Jacob was left alone, and a MAN wrestled with him..." Clearly Jacob was wrestling with a man, and not God Almighty himself, because as Exodus 33:20 states, no man can see God's face and live. It is further evidenced that this is a man in verse 28, where the man says, "...you have struggled with God AND WITH MEN..."

So who was this man that was wrestling with Jacob? He did not give his name, but this much is clear. The man was sent by God to wrestle with Jacob. So in verse 30 when Jacob says he saw God face to face, what Jacob actually saw was a man that was sent by God. This is not a contradiction.

That's BS. Here's why:

The verse clearly states “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” He is making a claim that he saw God. That claim is not invalidated by the context or clarified that he was speaking about someone/something else.

Saying he has struggled WITH GOD and with men furthers my point, not yours. While it says he wrestled with a "man", that man was unknown to Jacob at the time, then "touched his hip" to dislocate it (seems something beyond mere mortal wrestling techniques). It makes literary sense that the author would use "man" in that context because it is what Jacob thought he was wrestling with, and then have Jacob later reveal that it was God instead, when he states that he saw God face to face.

It is clear that what the story is trying to convey is that Jacob wrestled with an unknown being and won, then later realized it was God that he was wrestling with. The author knew how to write a story and wanted to draw you in with the surprise. The supernatural "touching of the hip" is consistent with it being God, not a man (unless you can demonstrate how to dislocate someone's hip by simply touching it - actually doing so would require a lot of force and probably can't be done in wrestling).

It is simply forcing your pre-conceived notion onto the text to make it say or not say what you like. Stating that the verse says WITH MEN too doesn't mean that he didn't struggle with God. Nowhere does it say that God sent a man to struggle with Jacob. That isn't even suggested by the context.

megamaster125 Wrote:Why is it ok for you guys to say "we don't have all the answers yet," but when I say "I can't fully understand God," you cry foul?

Because we are not making claims that we have the answer to the meaning of life, the source of all life, knowledge, everything. You are making those claims and then when you can't back up something with a logical argument, you turn to the "I can't understand his ways" plea. You can't propose a theory without understanding it and expect people to take you seriously. I couldn't go in and propose a new theory to counter Einstein's theory of relativity and fail to explain significant problems with the theory I propose. If I did, my theory would be rejected until I or someone else came up with suitable solutions to the problems. We simply reject the theory because we see the problems. Most Christians see the parts of the theory they like and turn a blind eye to the problems, then try to convince others to accept the theory based only on its positive aspects and sweep the problems under the rug.

Better without God, and happier too.
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14-11-2011, 04:41 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 04:30 PM)kim Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 03:22 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 09:58 AM)megamaster125 Wrote:  Why is it ok for you guys to say "we don't have all the answers yet," but when I say "I can't fully understand God," you cry foul?

Because your claim insists on a very specific set of rigid requirements for which the only alternative is eternal damnation. If there is a God, then he must make himself known- he must explain himself to the inquiring minds. But, such a demand is said to be arrogant. Who is man to question God, the Creator? Well... man is the result of a choice by God to place them into existence with no choice of their own except to make the final choice- for or against God. That is the culmination of man's existence according to the religious- it's all about the choice. Freedom of will. Man didn't choose to be created, but man can choose either eternal life or eternal death. Yet we are expected to make this choice with unforgivably-little knowledge. Because to question- to ask for more knowledge, is sinful arrogance.

What are the implications for a universe emerged into existence apart from a Creator?

Well... I for one won't cry foul.. it's not a game and you believe whatever gets you through the night.

Heart However... this man might help... he is far more able and eloquent than I ...

When I reach to the edge of the universe 
I do so knowing that along some paths of cosmic discovery 
there are times when, at least for now,
 one must be content to love the questions themselves. ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Neil deGrasse Tyson never fails to inspire me. Big Grin
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14-11-2011, 04:55 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
Wow, this thread is really exploding. I didn't intend this to be so popular. Umm, yeah, don't expect me to be able to respond to each of you and all of your comments. I also didn't intend for this topic to branch off into so many other things either.

(14-11-2011 12:36 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  Doubt is probably the most important of all qualities. If you don't approach claims with skepticism, then you're setting yourself up to be taken for a fool. For example, if someone asked me for a tenth of my income to provide my soul with fire insurance, I'd like to be certain (within reason) that I was actually in danger.

Oh, I would agree completely. It's good to have skepticism and to question. I would be skeptical too if someone asked for 10% of my income to give me fire insurance of my soul, and I wouldn't support that idea either.

Quote:Why doesn't god destroy Satan?

It's questions like this that make me doubt atheists that say they've read the Bible, because if you've read the Bible, then you know (or should know) the ending.

(14-11-2011 12:47 PM)Eye Sage Wrote:  Actually there's nothing for atheism to be accurate and correct about. Atheism isn't a belief system, it's simply a term denoting the absence of a particular kind of belief. This lack of a belief doesn't even have to mean the denial of the existence of God. Beyond this, whatever else the Atheist believes is all on them. Atheism literally has nothing to prove.

Atheism is the belief that there is no God, is it not? Then my question is very valid. How do you know this belief is correct?
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14-11-2011, 04:55 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
Religion violates logic.. via contradiction.

For example, religion/belief in god fall under the law of non contradiction, which is basic form a logic; More or less 2 things cannot both be right, one has to be wrong or both have to be wrong. This is what is strange.

Both Islam and Christianity assert Allah and Yahweh are true, but to one other they are wrong.
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14-11-2011, 05:08 PM
RE: I like shooting down Bible contradictions
(14-11-2011 04:41 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 04:30 PM)kim Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 03:22 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 09:58 AM)megamaster125 Wrote:  Why is it ok for you guys to say "we don't have all the answers yet," but when I say "I can't fully understand God," you cry foul?

Because your claim insists on a very specific set of rigid requirements for which the only alternative is eternal damnation. If there is a God, then he must make himself known- he must explain himself to the inquiring minds. But, such a demand is said to be arrogant. Who is man to question God, the Creator? Well... man is the result of a choice by God to place them into existence with no choice of their own except to make the final choice- for or against God. That is the culmination of man's existence according to the religious- it's all about the choice. Freedom of will. Man didn't choose to be created, but man can choose either eternal life or eternal death. Yet we are expected to make this choice with unforgivably-little knowledge. Because to question- to ask for more knowledge, is sinful arrogance.

What are the implications for a universe emerged into existence apart from a Creator?

Well... I for one won't cry foul.. it's not a game and you believe whatever gets you through the night.

Heart However... this man might help... he is far more able and eloquent than I ...

When I reach to the edge of the universe 
I do so knowing that along some paths of cosmic discovery 
there are times when, at least for now,
 one must be content to love the questions themselves. ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Neil deGrasse Tyson never fails to inspire me. Big Grin
There's a prophet - Tyson the heavyweight champion. Wink

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