I'll pray for you...
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07-08-2012, 12:37 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2012 12:43 AM by Humakt.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 11:49 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  I also beg to differ your definition of delusional is almost the opposite of the actual defintion. Delusions are beliefs that contradict available evidence, you perhaps have evidence that God does'nt exist to validate your claim that believers are delusional? Religious belief is enfatically not delusional as there is no evidence, nor can there be evidence for or against it.
PS If agnostic atheism isnt a system of belief, what is it ?

A delusion as you point out is a psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true, even though it is not in accordance with fact or reality.

The existence of a god has not been shown to be in accordance with fact or reality.
Someone who believes that a god is real, who holds a position that is NOT in accordance with fact or reality is DELUSIONAL

Example of a delusion

Bizarre delusion: A delusion that is very strange and completely implausible; an example of a bizarre delusion would be that a human being without any scientific equipment, who at times cannot detect where their car keys are, can detect a god defined as the most powerful entity in the universe who doesn't reside in the universe, and yet still maintains a level of awareness of everything in the universe. It is implausible that a human can detect anything outside of the universe when they can't even point to the center of their own galaxy on a star filled night.

I can show evidence that a human being alone without any instrumentation is incapable of knowing what lies beyond our universe or even beyond the four walls of a padded room that contain no windows.

The part about "despite superior evidence to the contrary" only shows that this is a poorly worded definition.

I offer you these
Psychiatry . a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Delusion of Grandeur - characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. This delusion can also turned onto other people or invisible, intangible gods that live outside of the universe.

My special friend is the most powerful being in the whole universe.

I am god - provide evidence to the contrary otherwise I'm not suffering from a delusion.

Your position is patently stupid.

PS. Agnostic Atheism doesn't promote any beliefs. Not one. Individuals describe themselves using these terms to denote a person who does not believe in any gods because there isn't sufficient evidence to hold that belief.

If there was a word to denote people who don't believe in bigfoot, the tooth fairy, santa claus, and other fictional story characters, then we could describe ourselves as that too.
And again, that position held by those people wouldn't be a belief system. It would be people using their fucking brains.

Your bending the definintion, to be a delusion it must stand in oppostion to existing evidence. There is no such evidence, therefore they are not delusional. If you wish to assert that there is no God as a fact I invite you to present your evidence.

Delusions are beliefs that contradict available evidence

This is the definition of delusion, the belief there is a God, may well be wrong, there may be no evidence to support it, but none of that changes what a delusion is. As my post clearly states the defintion, and that defintion not only is different from, but directly rules out what you want it to mean. I can only only assume you didnt bother to read it.

As for your example, not sure I follow old boy.

You can show evidence? Very well do so.

Back onto defintions.

I'll counter offer. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional

Your definition especially the psychiatry one abrieviates off the point you seem not to like, ie Psychiatry . maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness

2. psychiatry illusion See also hallucination a belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason

Again, a belief held despite evidence to contary.

Poorly worded, or not. By that I can only guess you mean, doesnt fit what you want it to mean and becomes less useful as a derogatory term - but theres no need to change the language so you can insult people, fucktard is a perfectly acceptable term.

"My special friend is the most powerful being in the whole universe.

I am god - provide evidence to the contrary otherwise I'm not suffering from a delusion.

Your position is patently stupid."

Thats nice.

Ive already said, I cant disprove God so yes your not suffering from a delusion. That does not in anyway make you right, only not delusional.

Your use of personal insults as a form of argumentation, says more about you than me, although strictly your not being personal right. Using words for what they actually mean and not a dumbed down X factored version that you like instead is just you transcending language with your hyper intellect tryin to show all as dummies that attempts to use the language with somantic exactitude are dumb shits for not gettin that words are just mouth breathin shit we make up as we go along.

Agnostic atheism, promotes the idea that you can not have knowledge of the divine. Or are without knowledge of the divne. Also as you yourself clearly state, the term is used to assert a belief. What your doing is conflating belief and faith, I can only assume, but given the way youve shown yourself to use language I can really only guess.

As to the beliefs of someone not being a belief system, thats clearly hogwash. I have absolutly no faith in God existence, this lack of faith stems from and informs my beliefs about the way things are. My beliefs like almost everyone else are a systametised. Therefore my belief system, encompasses agnostism. If you dont have a belief a system, then fair enough perhaps thats why your happy being incoherant.

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07-08-2012, 02:26 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2012 02:30 AM by Vosur.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  I also beg to differ your definition of delusional is almost the opposite of the actual defintion. Delusions are beliefs that contradict available evidence, you perhaps have evidence that God does'nt exist to validate your claim that believers are delusional? Religious belief is enfatically not delusional as there is no evidence, nor can there be evidence for or against it. The fact that there is no supporting evidence is immaterial, to make your claim that they are delusional stick you need evidence to compare it to. No amount of not having evidence will work. Also, by definition delusions are the pathology of a mental disorder, I'll accept this is not perhaps where you where going, but it took me 5 seconds to check the definition, I checked it because I knew you'd got it wrong and have posted the definition below and the link to the wiki. Really if your gonna get all holier than thou, and throw words like evidence and whatnot around, you might be better served in future validiting your claims or at the very least you could look up some of the bigger words.

"A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
de·lu·sion·al [dih-loo-zhuh-nl]
adjective
1.
having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions: Senators who think they will get agreement on a comprehensive tax bill are delusional.
2.
maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness: He was so delusional and paranoid that he thought everybody was conspiring against him.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional

One does not need to be confronted with positive evidence for the contrary position to be delusional. As the quoted definition states, one needs to be confronted only with the available facts. Such a fact would be the absence of any evidence supporting their belief. Without anything to support said belief, the belief becomes unrealistic, because it has no basis in reality.

(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  PS If agnostic atheism isnt a system of belief, what then is it?
"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

Better luck next time. Drinking Beverage

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07-08-2012, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2012 06:13 AM by Jeff.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(05-08-2012 03:49 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Seems to me, your askin for them to accept and respect your choice, but your not as willing to return the favour - if they pray for you this doesnt harm you, is in accordance with there beliefs and by right you should respect that.

Not quite. He's not asking them not to pray (he knows it does nothing so has no objection to it.) He is asking them not to tell him that they're going to pray for him.

When you tell someone that you're an atheist, and they say they are going to pray for you, it's an act of hostility on their part. Why? There's nothing in their belief system that says they need to tell you they're going to pray. They can just pray and be quiet about it. It makes no difference according to their belief system. So why do they tell you they're going to pray? Well, by telling them that you're an atheist you've questioned a premise that they've accepted at face value but have been afraid to think through. So they're feeling vulnerable and defensive, and telling you that they're going to pray is a bit of passive-aggressive defensiveness. Further, deep down where they can't admit it to themselves, they know that prayer does nothing, and the only thing that's real about this transaction is the part about telling you.

Perhaps the best way to respond is to mimic the believers "I'm offended" schtick with something like "I don't mind if you pray for me, but it's disrespectful to my beliefs when you tell me you're going to pray, so please don't do that again."
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07-08-2012, 10:15 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
Humakt - I was going to spend some time debating all these points, but I don't need to.
If you want to hold on to your delusional belief in that definition of delusion, go right ahead. I'm not gonna stop you.
Have at it Hoss.

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07-08-2012, 12:29 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(07-08-2012 02:26 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  I also beg to differ your definition of delusional is almost the opposite of the actual defintion. Delusions are beliefs that contradict available evidence, you perhaps have evidence that God does'nt exist to validate your claim that believers are delusional? Religious belief is enfatically not delusional as there is no evidence, nor can there be evidence for or against it. The fact that there is no supporting evidence is immaterial, to make your claim that they are delusional stick you need evidence to compare it to. No amount of not having evidence will work. Also, by definition delusions are the pathology of a mental disorder, I'll accept this is not perhaps where you where going, but it took me 5 seconds to check the definition, I checked it because I knew you'd got it wrong and have posted the definition below and the link to the wiki. Really if your gonna get all holier than thou, and throw words like evidence and whatnot around, you might be better served in future validiting your claims or at the very least you could look up some of the bigger words.

"A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
de·lu·sion·al [dih-loo-zhuh-nl]
adjective
1.
having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions: Senators who think they will get agreement on a comprehensive tax bill are delusional.
2.
maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness: He was so delusional and paranoid that he thought everybody was conspiring against him.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional

One does not need to be confronted with positive evidence for the contrary position to be delusional. As the quoted definition states, one needs to be confronted only with the available facts. Such a fact would be the absence of any evidence supporting their belief. Without anything to support said belief, the belief becomes unrealistic, because it has no basis in reality.

(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  PS If agnostic atheism isnt a system of belief, what then is it?
"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

Better luck next time. Drinking Beverage

"One does not need to be confronted with positive evidence for the contrary position to be delusional. As the quoted definition states, one needs to be confronted only with the available facts. Such a fact would be the absence of any evidence supporting their belief. Without anything to support said belief, the belief becomes unrealistic, because it has no basis in reality."

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. If you present me no evidence I'll be as moved by the weight of the evidence as it justifies ie not at all. Not gonna waste my breathe further on ths nonsense.

(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  PS If agnostic atheism isnt a system of belief, what then is it?
"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

Better luck next time. Drinking Beverage
[/quote]

Not sure what your point is, is a philosphical posistion a part of a belief system, I quickly define Agnostic atheism in a later a post and broadly speaking say much the same thing. although the formal difference between agnostic athiest/thiest is new to me, but you may not have read further on in the thread before aswering which is coolio.

You say better luck next time, as if that makes you winner - I can understnd why "you" may feel like this as youve no evidence to support such an asertion which as you obviously credit luck is lucky for you, me Im still a little agnostic on the subject of pixie dust.

Drinking Beverage

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07-08-2012, 12:41 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(07-08-2012 06:10 AM)Jeff Wrote:  
(05-08-2012 03:49 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Seems to me, your askin for them to accept and respect your choice, but your not as willing to return the favour - if they pray for you this doesnt harm you, is in accordance with there beliefs and by right you should respect that.

Not quite. He's not asking them not to pray (he knows it does nothing so has no objection to it.) He is asking them not to tell him that they're going to pray for him.

"Fair point"

When you tell someone that you're an atheist, and they say they are going to pray for you, it's an act of hostility on their part. Why? There's nothing in their belief system that says they need to tell you they're going to pray. They can just pray and be quiet about it. It makes no difference according to their belief system. So why do they tell you they're going to pray? Well, by telling them that you're an atheist you've questioned a premise that they've accepted at face value but have been afraid to think through. So they're feeling vulnerable and defensive, and telling you that they're going to pray is a bit of passive-aggressive defensiveness. Further, deep down where they can't admit it to themselves, they know that prayer does nothing, and the only thing that's real about this transaction is the part about telling you.

"I dont nessecarily see it as an act of hostility per se, not saying of course that in some case it isnt hostile. Actually there beliefs tell them to proclaim there beliefs and not deny it. As for the rest of it, not knowing the people in question I cant really speak to there attitudes, assumptions, intelligence or behaviour."

Perhaps the best way to respond is to mimic the believers "I'm offended" schtick with something like "I don't mind if you pray for me, but it's disrespectful to my beliefs when you tell me you're going to pray, so please don't do that again."

"Provided that your not just mimicing, then thats a reasonable enough request. As reseonable as a counter request to not blaspheme, show disrespect for their beliefs would be."

Gonna answer in the body of the text for brevity see above.

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07-08-2012, 12:52 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(07-08-2012 10:15 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Humakt - I was going to spend some time debating all these points, but I don't need to.
If you want to hold on to your delusional belief in that definition of delusion, go right ahead. I'm not gonna stop you.
Have at it Hoss.

Having presented you with evidence, which you have not addressed or even acknowledged, except by dismissing it as a delusion even though it is literally there in black and white for you, you would be the one clinging to a belief despite contary evidence. I'll also ignore that you offered to present evidence to support your claims, where invited to and have instead inferred I'm at fault.

You do however make one assertion I dont have a problem with, your most definatly not going to stop me, the "is not, you dumb" form of arguementation is far from compelling. Of course well thought out and articulated arguement, but you seem unwilling to present one, so I'll remain unconvinced, thanks for your kind invitation.

Anywhoo........

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07-08-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
The evidence that there are no gods as defined by current religions includes the fact that prayer does not work, the fact that explanations of the observed workings of the universe at every scale do not require the supernatural, the fact that the world looks exactly as it should without the existence of gods, the continued success of the scientific method, the continued failure of faith-healing, the continued complete lack of evidence that should be there if gods exist.

Absence of evidence that should be there is evidence of absence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-08-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(07-08-2012 12:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. If you present me no evidence I'll be as moved by the weight of the evidence as it justifies ie not at all. Not gonna waste my breathe further on ths nonsense.
Congratulations on commiting the strawman fallacy by misrepresenting my argument. I suggest you to reread what I wrote, because I was not talking about evidence, let alone about lack of evidence being equal to evidence of absence, but about the available facts we have about belief systems such as Christianity (for further information, refer to Chas' post).

Quote:Not sure what your point is, is a philosphical posistion a part of a belief system, I quickly define Agnostic atheism in a later a post and broadly speaking say much the same thing. although the formal difference between agnostic athiest/thiest is new to me, but you may not have read further on in the thread before aswering which is coolio.
I couldn't care less about your definition of agnostic atheism. The fact remains that it's solely a philosophical position that has nothing to do with believing. I referred you to a source to back this up while you offered nothing but hot air.

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07-08-2012, 08:33 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
I have to agree with the dictionary definitions of Delusional.

And I have to also agree that Agnostic, Agnostic Atheism, and Atheism are a part of a set of beliefs, but not a belief system.

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