I'll pray for you...
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08-08-2012, 10:07 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 09:38 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 08:14 AM)Humakt Wrote:  So to sum up delusion excludes dogma, religion gets a free ticket out of your dismissal. Agnostic atheism as per the definition you provide, not only does not as you assert exclude itself from being a belief system it on the contrary identifies itself as philosophical doctrine.

Sorry sir but you are in error.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system
A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs may be religious, philosophical, ideological or a combination of these. Philosopher Jonathan Glover says that beliefs are always a part of a belief system, and that belief systems are difficult to completely revise.

Agnostic atheism is a position on gods existence, not a belief system, but can be a part of one.

A set of mutually supportive beliefs, in the case the set of beliefs would comprise agnostism and atheism.

There you go a set of two which together comprise a belief system.

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08-08-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:07 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 09:38 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Sorry sir but you are in error.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system
A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs may be religious, philosophical, ideological or a combination of these. Philosopher Jonathan Glover says that beliefs are always a part of a belief system, and that belief systems are difficult to completely revise.

Agnostic atheism is a position on gods existence, not a belief system, but can be a part of one.

A set of mutually supportive beliefs, in the case the set of beliefs would comprise agnostism and atheism.

There you go a set of two which together comprise a belief system.

Seriously, dude, not accepting unsubstantiated claims is not a belief system.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2012, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2012 10:34 AM by Humakt.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:01 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 09:53 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Thanks for the down rep, from you I'll take that as compliment. Before down repping you I checked my liked posts and found an authority that counters one of your many bogus claims here. Not being a the sort to rub peoples faces in their failings, I wasnt gonna post it, but in light of your unfounded accusations I will.

Amongst the assertions you have made here you stated that you can disprove god because of lack of evidence. I paraphrase, but Im through really dignifing your waffle with a proper response. Here ( http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid140804 ) you clearly and definativly state the opposite.

I'll take this as evidence, that you are as Ive said making shit up as you go along, you clearly have no real idea what you believe and as such any attempt at debating with you is pointless.

You can now carry on the debate with yourself as your clearly on both sides, please feel free to down rep me again having people like you disagree with me is compelling evidence Im on the right track.

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You continue proving that you are most definetly deluded. In this entire thread I have never claimed that it is possible to disprove god using the absence of evidence for his existence as proof (http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...id146568). Furthermore, dismissing the content of the negative reputation entry while using it as confirmation for your childish and absurd beliefs looks a lot like denial of reality. The fact that you are unable or unwilling to admit that you are blantantly wrong and support your arguments using plenty of logical fallacies (the strawman fallacy and ad hominem fallacy seem to be your favourites) is evidence indicating that you're not ready to have a discussion on this level quite yet.

mmk, so here you dont state you cant disprove a universal negative? whereas in this thread you havent made the exact opposite claim?

(24-07-2012 02:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(24-07-2012 02:05 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  The long-standing favoured logical position is that you can't prove a negative.
Actually, you can prove a negative. For example:

A human is not a fish.
The earth does not revolve around the sun.
Our earth is not 6.000 years old.

What you can't prove is a universal negative, such as

There are no Gods.
There is no life other than the life on earth in the universe.
Aliens/Bigfoot/Nessy/etc do not exist.

In this thread and this post you say the exact opposite ( http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid146752 )

Specifuically, you say "In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional."

To me that sounds a lot like say you can disprove with a lack of evidence. This would I submit support the idea that you are being intellectually dishonest, but what do I know. Only that you assert you didnt say this when you in fact did not 4 or 5 posts earlier.

I'll further submit that as this is clear evidence that your a lying and confused little man that you go back and that you re read the definition of deluded if you wish to continue hold a contary view.

Im a troll, deluded and guilty of using ad hominems. Oh what a sin that is, you of course are to righteous to use ad hominems, if you cant see that your position here and your statement in the quoted thread are contradictory then call me more names.

Any more lies you wanna throw my way, where as your technically savvy enough to post pictures to emblish your lies, I'm sure I can find more evidence of your duplicity if need be.

Or you could save me the trouble of citing you in evidence that your full of shit and just argue with yourself.

Anyway, now Im beginning to feel a bit childish and like a bully, engaging in a debate with someone so clearly incapable of defending themselves is making me feel kinda dirty.

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08-08-2012, 10:35 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:30 AM)Humakt Wrote:  In this thread and this post you say the exact opposite (http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid146752 )

Specifuically, you say "In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional."

To me that sounds a lot like say you can disprove with a lack of evidence. This would I submit support the idea that you are being intellectually dishonest, but what do I know. Only that you assert you didnt say this when you in fact did not 4 or 5 posts earlier.
Nowhere in that post did I say that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. Still, congratulations on misrepresenting what I said and putting words in my mouth. Drinking Beverage

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08-08-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:35 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 10:30 AM)Humakt Wrote:  In this thread and this post you say the exact opposite (http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid146752 )

Specifuically, you say "In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional."

To me that sounds a lot like say you can disprove with a lack of evidence. This would I submit support the idea that you are being intellectually dishonest, but what do I know. Only that you assert you didnt say this when you in fact did not 4 or 5 posts earlier.
Nowhere in that post did I say that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. Drinking Beverage

You say it here:

"In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional."

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08-08-2012, 10:41 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:38 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You say it here:

"In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional."
The post you quoted states that believing in god(s) despite the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of god(s) makes one delusional. It does in no way, shape or form support the claim that god doesn't exist. Apparently you like to see things in people's posts that aren't there.

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08-08-2012, 10:58 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:41 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 10:38 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You say it here:

"In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional."
The post you quoted states that believing in god despite the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of god(s) makes one delusional. It does in no way, shape or form support the claim that god doesn't exist. Apparently you like to see things in people's posts that aren't there.

OK, so there views are delusional because they believe them with no evidence. But they may be right. So what your now saying is the delusional might be right in there views.

The general tone of your posts, leads me to believe that your saying that.

I beg to differ, KC. The term "delusion" is not based on someone's point of view, but on the available evidence compared to a person's belief and the unwillingness to change said belief. Since there is no evidence for the existence christian god/the resurrection of Jesus, everyone who still believes in either of the two would be classified as delusional.

Furthermore, believing that their belief is reality doesn't make it reality.

You say here clearly as there is no evidence to support the claim, belief in it is delusional.

So your either believe the lack of evidence disproves god, or your delusional.

Here also:

One does not need to be confronted with positive evidence for the contrary position to be delusional. As the quoted definition states, one needs to be confronted only with the available facts. Such a fact would be the absence of any evidence supporting their belief. Without anything to support said belief, the belief becomes unrealistic, because it has no basis in reality.

Your assertion is that lack of evidence support the notion that the idea has nop basis in reality.

Or in simple language no evidence = not true.

I'll repeat the first quote:

In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional.

You assert clearly that a belief is false if you are confronted with fact that are contary, you allso assert clarly that one such fact can be a lack of evidence that confirms.

In other a lack of evidence is you are asserting is evidence of lack.

lastly you say:

Nowhere in that post did I say that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. Still, congratulations on misrepresenting what I said and putting words in my mouth.

I havent used any words in refuting you, except the words youve used. Im not misreprsenting you, Im copy and pasting what you said to refute what you said.

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08-08-2012, 10:58 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:07 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 09:38 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Sorry sir but you are in error.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system
A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs may be religious, philosophical, ideological or a combination of these. Philosopher Jonathan Glover says that beliefs are always a part of a belief system, and that belief systems are difficult to completely revise.

Agnostic atheism is a position on gods existence, not a belief system, but can be a part of one.

A set of mutually supportive beliefs, in the case the set of beliefs would comprise agnostism and atheism.

There you go a set of two which together comprise a belief system.

Agnostic atheism is a no position until further evidence proves the positive claim that god exists.

Now if you want to think it's a belief system go ahead. But keep in mind that you do so while rejecting evidence to the contrary. Which is the dictionary definition of delusion.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

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08-08-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 10:07 AM)Humakt Wrote:  A set of mutually supportive beliefs, in the case the set of beliefs would comprise agnostism and atheism.

There you go a set of two which together comprise a belief system.

Seriously, dude, not accepting unsubstantiated claims is not a belief system.

Pardon?

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08-08-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 10:07 AM)Humakt Wrote:  A set of mutually supportive beliefs, in the case the set of beliefs would comprise agnostism and atheism.

There you go a set of two which together comprise a belief system.

Agnostic atheism is a no position until further evidence proves the positive claim that god exists.

Now if you want to think it's a belief system go ahead. But keep in mind that you do so while rejecting evidence to the contrary. Which is the dictionary definition of delusion.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Ok is atheism a belief?

is agnostism?

is a set a individual objects placed in a group?

is a set of beliefs the definition of a belief system?

The answer is yes, ergo its a belief system.

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