I'll pray for you...
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08-08-2012, 11:09 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:05 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Agnostic atheism is a no position until further evidence proves the positive claim that god exists.

Now if you want to think it's a belief system go ahead. But keep in mind that you do so while rejecting evidence to the contrary. Which is the dictionary definition of delusion.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Ok is atheism a belief?

is agnostism?

is a set a individual objects placed in a group?

is a set of beliefs the definition of a belief system?

The answer is yes, ergo its a belief system.

Can you provide any external evidence to support your claim?

If it is a belief system there must be other sources to confirm your idea.

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08-08-2012, 11:09 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
And you still fail to bring forth one argument supporting your assertion that I have claimed that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. And you still keep using strawmans by misrepresenting the contents of my post. You can try twisting my words around all day long, that won't change what I actually said at all.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You assert clearly that a belief is false if you are confronted with fact that are contary, you allso assert clarly that one such fact can be a lack of evidence that confirms.
Wrong. I assert that if someone believes in God despite the fact that there is no evidence for his belief, he is delusional.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You say here clearly as there is no evidence to support the claim, belief in it is delusional.

So your either believe the lack of evidence disproves god, or your delusional
Yet another logical fallacy, called false dilemma. There is a third option, which is neither of the two.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Your assertion is that lack of evidence support the notion that the idea has nop basis in reality.

Or in simple language no evidence = not true.
Wrong again. In simple language: no evidence = no basis in reality

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You assert clearly that a belief is false if you are confronted with fact that are contary, you allso assert clarly that one such fact can be a lack of evidence that confirms.

In other a lack of evidence is you are asserting is evidence of lack.
Wrong again. I assert that if someone believes in God despite the fact that there is no evidence for his belief, he is delusional.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  I havent used any words in refuting you, except the words youve used. Im not misreprsenting you, Im copy and pasting what you said to refute what you said.
You're quoting parts of my posts and draw conclusions from them that have nothing to do with what I actually wrote.
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08-08-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:09 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 11:05 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Ok is atheism a belief?

is agnostism?

is a set a individual objects placed in a group?

is a set of beliefs the definition of a belief system?

The answer is yes, ergo its a belief system.

Can you provide any external evidence to support your claim?

What possit you with questions? Which you havent answered btw.

OK my evidence is that atheism and agnostsm are beliefs. They are placed into a set comprising both of them and that this set of beliefs conforms to the definition that a set of belief makes a belief system.

Problems?

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08-08-2012, 11:16 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:12 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 11:09 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Can you provide any external evidence to support your claim?

What possit you with questions? Which you havent answered btw.

OK my evidence is that atheism and agnostsm are beliefs. They are placed into a set comprising both of them and that this set of beliefs conforms to the definition that a set of belief makes a belief system.

Problems?

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08-08-2012, 11:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2012 11:31 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:12 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Ok is atheism a belief?
No, it's the position that there is not god.
Quote:is agnostism?
No, it's the position that until more evidence comes along, you cannot decide either way.
Quote:is a set a individual objects placed in a group?
It's the no position, until more knowledge comes along. The combining of terms is just a description of this position.
Quote:is a set of beliefs the definition of a belief system?
Yes
Quote:The answer is yes, ergo its a belief system.
Nope


Until you provide an external source or sources for your definition your claim is unsubstantiated.

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08-08-2012, 11:29 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:05 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Agnostic atheism is a no position until further evidence proves the positive claim that god exists.

Now if you want to think it's a belief system go ahead. But keep in mind that you do so while rejecting evidence to the contrary. Which is the dictionary definition of delusion.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Ok is atheism a belief?

is agnostism?

is a set a individual objects placed in a group?

is a set of beliefs the definition of a belief system?

The answer is yes, ergo its a belief system.

No, atheism is a lack of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge.

A lack of belief is not a belief, ergo not a belief system.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:09 AM)Vosur Wrote:  And you still fail to bring forth one argument supporting your assertion that I have claimed that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. And you still keep using strawmans by misrepresenting the contents of my post. You can try twisting my words around all day long, that won't change what I actually said at all.

I havent altered what you said, Ive copied and pasted your comments directly.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You assert clearly that a belief is false if you are confronted with fact that are contary, you allso assert clarly that one such fact can be a lack of evidence that confirms.
Wrong. I assert that if someone believes in God despite the fact that there is no evidence for his belief, he is delusional.

In order to be delusional, you have to either hold unrealistic/false beliefs (i.e. a belief without a single shred of evidence) and/or maintain said beliefs when confronted with facts. As I've already mentioned, one of these facts is the absence of any evidence supporting any kind of religious beliefs. If one continues to hold on to his beliefs after being confronted with such a fact, he is, per definition, delusional.

belief in god is delusiona; because of lack of evidence that confirms.

Delusional is synonimous with wrong so belief in god is wrong because of a lack of evidence. If you assert its delusional because they lack evidence your saying its wrong because of the lack evidence. if you assert its wrong you make a positive assetion that god does not exist because you have no evidence. That is you suppport as fact that god doesnt exist because you lack evidence.

As you say the fact you use to disprove their beliefs, is the fact theres no supporting evidence. Your saying lack of evidence supports your negative claim, in that to claim they are delusional and thus wrong is validated by the the wealth of no supporting evidence. I just dont buy it.

It is reasonable say, the lack of evidence is a strong indication that God may not exist, that you find no evidence to support the claim that he does or many similar non definitive style statement - what Im asserting is you cant say they are delusional with any certainity, because to do so is to assert that they are wrong, which is to say as they are wrong in contending god exists he must if your assertion is true not exist. Hell, even may be delusional is good. It is exactly because of this that matters of dogma/religious belief are explictitly expluded from the definition of delusional in the first place.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You say here clearly as there is no evidence to support the claim, belief in it is delusional.

So your either believe the lack of evidence disproves god, or your delusional
Yet another logical fallacy, called false dilemma. There is a third option, which is neither of the two.

Thats a fair point there are in fact 4, god exists, he doesnt, your delusional, your not.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Your assertion is that lack of evidence support the notion that the idea has nop basis in reality.

Or in simple language no evidence = not true.
Wrong again. In simple language: no evidence = no basis in reality

if it where true it would have a basis in reality, it is only by being false that it would have no basis in reality.

So no evidence = not true and no evidence = no basis in reality are exactly the same thing (dont wanna use synonimous again Tongue)

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  You assert clearly that a belief is false if you are confronted with fact that are contary, you allso assert clarly that one such fact can be a lack of evidence that confirms.

In other a lack of evidence is you are asserting is evidence of lack.
Wrong again. I assert that if someone believes in God despite the fact that there is no evidence for his belief, he is delusional.

And yet the definition of delusional is a false belief ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusion ) "3.
a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur. "

So saying the belief is delusional is to assert its false, its synonimous.

(08-08-2012 10:58 AM)Humakt Wrote:  I havent used any words in refuting you, except the words youve used. Im not misreprsenting you, Im copy and pasting what you said to refute what you said.
You're quoting parts of my posts and draw conclusions from them that have nothing to do with what I actually wrote.

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08-08-2012, 12:05 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 11:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 11:05 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Ok is atheism a belief?

is agnostism?

is a set a individual objects placed in a group?

is a set of beliefs the definition of a belief system?

The answer is yes, ergo its a belief system.

No, atheism is a lack of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge.

A lack of belief is not a belief, ergo not a belief system.

be·lief
[bih-leef] Show IPA
noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief )

I refer you good sir, to the dictionary. Unless your saying that you lack confidence in the beliefs you hold that lead you to agnostic or atheist or agnostic athiest or whatever you self label yourself as.

agnostism/atheism clearly fit neatly into the above definition.

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08-08-2012, 12:09 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
Double posted like a tard.

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08-08-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(08-08-2012 12:05 PM)Humakt Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 11:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, atheism is a lack of belief. Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge.

A lack of belief is not a belief, ergo not a belief system.

be·lief
[bih-leef] Show IPA
noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief )

I refer you good sir, to the dictionary. Unless your saying that you lack confidence in the beliefs you hold that lead you to agnostic or atheist or agnostic athiest or whatever you self label yourself as.

agnostism/atheism clearly fit neatly into the above definition.

Belief perseverance - a tendency or unwillingness to admit that their foundational premises are incorrect even when shown convincing evidence to the contrary. Belief Perseverance is this tendency to reject convincing proof and become even more tenaciously held when the belief has been publicly announced to others.


*shrugs* Shocking *and leaves*

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