I'll pray for you...
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06-08-2012, 11:42 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2012 11:46 AM by Vosur.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 11:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your point of view =/= someone else's

A little empathy goes a long way.

You may think it's a delusion, but a Christian believes it's a reality. Knowing that, then you should realized that compliment that a Christian pays to someone by saying that they will pray.

If anything, your comment is forcing your system of belief upon someone else... exactly what we're trying to avoid.
I beg to differ, KC. The term "delusion" is not based on someone's point of view, but on the available evidence compared to a person's belief and the unwillingness to change said belief. Since there is no evidence for the existence christian god/the resurrection of Jesus, everyone who still believes in either of the two would be classified as delusional.

Furthermore, believing that their belief is reality doesn't make it reality.

P.S.: Do you still think that agnostic atheism is a system of belief?

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06-08-2012, 11:47 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2012 11:54 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 11:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-08-2012 11:31 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Wanting someone to be a deluded isn't wrong? Consider I can understand that you have a hard time realizing what's wrong with being deluded if that description fits yourself.

Your point of view =/= someone else's

A little empathy goes a long way.

You may think it's a delusion, but a Christian believes it's a reality. Knowing that, then you should realized that compliment that a Christian pays to someone by saying that they will pray.

If anything, your comment is forcing your system of belief upon someone else... exactly what we're trying to avoid.

The point is the OP understands their parents intention is to have a supernatural force change what he thinks.

He is upset that his parents basically want him to be a believer rather than just accept his new position.

I too would be insulted that they intend to use a supernatural force to make me think something I do not find to be true.

Also on that same point. To me its futile for them to talk to their imaginary friend. To force a person to believe anything.

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06-08-2012, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2012 01:08 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 11:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You may think it's a delusion, but a Christian believes it's a reality. Knowing that, then you should realized that compliment that a Christian pays to someone by saying that they will pray.

It's not a complement. Their intents are disguised as love. They use it as a way to express their need to control, to get answers, to promote their own significance, which ultimately comforts themselves.

When the victims of rape, violence, and abused, go through their experiences, and you pray for them you make yourself feel better but have done nothing tangible to help them. It's incredibly selfish.

Instead you should offer your help personally if you can. Compassion should be expressed to the person. You are a human being and capable of doing so much more than that!

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06-08-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
KC - so every prayer is a compliment? What about the one of 'I'll pray that he gets hit by a bus'?

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06-08-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
Here's a mental experiment on prayer.

Five people are lined up A B C D E
They are told that a man is going to come in with a 6 shot revolver and fire it at each person in the head. The revolver will only have 5 bullets in it.
The chamber will be spun several times to create a random order. Each of you will pray that you aren't killed. The one who survives will move on to the next round.

In round 1, B survives and he thanks god for saving him. His family is thankful and they rationalize that the 5 other people weren't in touch with god the way he was.
God spared his life for a reason and he also must have had a reason for ending the lives of the other 5 men.

Round 2
Five people are lined up A B C D E
They are told that a man is going to come in with a 6 shot revolver and fire it at each person in the head. The revolver will only have 5 bullets in it.
The chamber will be spun several times to create a random order. Each of you will pray that you aren't killed. The one who survives will move on to the next round.

In this round, again B survives and his faith is increased even more. He feels that his connection to god is unbreakable.
God spared his life for a reason and he also must have had a reason for ending the lives of the other 5 men.

Round 3
Same as before except that before this round begins. B is asked if he would like to stay or he may leave to go live the rest of his life with his family.
B decides to stay because he is sure that god is with him. He has not lost his faith, god is protecting him and he sees no reason to abandon his faith in god.

The pistol is fired and D survives. D thanks god for saving him. His family is thankful and they rationalize that the 5 other people weren't in touch with god the way he was.
God spared his life for a reason and he also must have had a reason for ending the lives of the other 5 men.

Prayer does nothing except to make you think that something is true, when it's not.
Faith - pretending that you know something when you don't know.

Belief in a god is a mind game. A game that can make you believe that you are special, so special that it can place you in a position that will get you killed and rationalize the killing of others. (9/11 is a good example)

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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06-08-2012, 02:10 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
Just want to do a follow-up post given all the replies here, there is much to comment on:

* I haven't responded to this person. I didn't and wouldn't tell this person not to pray for me -- I wouldn't even attempt to control what other people pray for.

* In what way am I not respecting their religion? They are Christian, I don't lay awake at night thinking to myself how I wish they were atheists; I accept that they are Christians and have moved on. I only want them to do the same.

* I didn't ask them to keep loving me. I asked them to accept me. Not to love some person that I am not, and hang on to some hope that I will become the person that they wish I was.

* As for not having anything to worry about, but they do (hell), I disagree -- there is plenty to worry about. For example that their beliefs inform their actions, and that they are voting based on these beliefs, voting for things that I consider serious human rights issues. Or how about that (at least from my POV) that they are wasting their lives believing a lie -- that's nothing to worry about? I have plenty to worry about.

* Not all Christians believe that it means I'm going to hell. Some subscribe to the once-saved-always-saved concept, and reject the concept of the one unforgivable sin. So according to some, since I was once Christian and "saved", then it doesn't matter that I am now an atheist and have explicitly rejected the god of the bible; they still think I'm going to heaven, so they are not "worried" about anything.

* I was once a Christian, I know they "mean well", I know that's just Christian jargon for "I care about you", I get it. I really do. Although, I don't think they realize that what they are actually saying is incredibly offensive.

A rephrasing of the issue at hand here so hopefully everyone can understand: It's like saying " I accept you for who you are, but I wish you were the opposite of yourself." <----- contradictory statement. Either the first part or the second part is false.

Glad to see that some of you understood the issue I am addressing. Thanks for all your replies.

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06-08-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
Well spoken Parsonf Smile

Well... I reckon you just needed to blow off a bit of steam. Some of us are in the same boat, so we get where you're coming from.
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06-08-2012, 02:40 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 02:10 PM)parsonf Wrote:  Just want to do a follow-up post given all the replies here, there is much to comment on:

* I haven't responded to this person. I didn't and wouldn't tell this person not to pray for me -- I wouldn't even attempt to control what other people pray for.

* In what way am I not respecting their religion? They are Christian, I don't lay awake at night thinking to myself how I wish they were atheists; I accept that they are Christians and have moved on. I only want them to do the same.

* I didn't ask them to keep loving me. I asked them to accept me. Not to love some person that I am not, and hang on to some hope that I will become the person that they wish I was.

* As for not having anything to worry about, but they do (hell), I disagree -- there is plenty to worry about. For example that their beliefs inform their actions, and that they are voting based on these beliefs, voting for things that I consider serious human rights issues. Or how about that (at least from my POV) that they are wasting their lives believing a lie -- that's nothing to worry about? I have plenty to worry about.

* Not all Christians believe that it means I'm going to hell. Some subscribe to the once-saved-always-saved concept, and reject the concept of the one unforgivable sin. So according to some, since I was once Christian and "saved", then it doesn't matter that I am now an atheist and have explicitly rejected the god of the bible; they still think I'm going to heaven, so they are not "worried" about anything.

* I was once a Christian, I know they "mean well", I know that's just Christian jargon for "I care about you", I get it. I really do. Although, I don't think they realize that what they are actually saying is incredibly offensive.

A rephrasing of the issue at hand here so hopefully everyone can understand: It's like saying " I accept you for who you are, but I wish you were the opposite of yourself." <----- contradictory statement. Either the first part or the second part is false.

Glad to see that some of you understood the issue I am addressing. Thanks for all your replies.

Well stated and I'm happy that you have such a deep and clear understanding of the whole thing.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-08-2012, 10:29 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 11:42 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-08-2012 11:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your point of view =/= someone else's

A little empathy goes a long way.

You may think it's a delusion, but a Christian believes it's a reality. Knowing that, then you should realized that compliment that a Christian pays to someone by saying that they will pray.

If anything, your comment is forcing your system of belief upon someone else... exactly what we're trying to avoid.
I beg to differ, KC. The term "delusion" is not based on someone's point of view, but on the available evidence compared to a person's belief and the unwillingness to change said belief. Since there is no evidence for the existence christian god/the resurrection of Jesus, everyone who still believes in either of the two would be classified as delusional.

Furthermore, believing that their belief is reality doesn't make it reality.

P.S.: Do you still think that agnostic atheism is a system of belief?

I also beg to differ your definition of delusional is almost the opposite of the actual defintion. Delusions are beliefs that contradict available evidence, you perhaps have evidence that God does'nt exist to validate your claim that believers are delusional? Religious belief is enfatically not delusional as there is no evidence, nor can there be evidence for or against it. The fact that there is no supporting evidence is immaterial, to make your claim that they are delusional stick you need evidence to compare it to. No amount of not having evidence will work. Also, by definition delusions are the pathology of a mental disorder, I'll accept this is not perhaps where you where going, but it took me 5 seconds to check the definition, I checked it because I knew you'd got it wrong and have posted the definition below and the link to the wiki. Really if your gonna get all holier than thou, and throw words like evidence and whatnot around, you might be better served in future validiting your claims or at the very least you could look up some of the bigger words.

"A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion


PS If agnostic atheism isnt a system of belief, what then is it?

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06-08-2012, 11:49 PM
RE: I'll pray for you...
(06-08-2012 10:29 PM)Humakt Wrote:  I also beg to differ your definition of delusional is almost the opposite of the actual defintion. Delusions are beliefs that contradict available evidence, you perhaps have evidence that God does'nt exist to validate your claim that believers are delusional? Religious belief is enfatically not delusional as there is no evidence, nor can there be evidence for or against it.
PS If agnostic atheism isnt a system of belief, what is it ?

A delusion as you point out is a psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true, even though it is not in accordance with fact or reality.

The existence of a god has not been shown to be in accordance with fact or reality.
Someone who believes that a god is real, who holds a position that is NOT in accordance with fact or reality is DELUSIONAL

Example of a delusion

Bizarre delusion: A delusion that is very strange and completely implausible; an example of a bizarre delusion would be that a human being without any scientific equipment, who at times cannot detect where their car keys are, can detect a god defined as the most powerful entity in the universe who doesn't reside in the universe, and yet still maintains a level of awareness of everything in the universe. It is implausible that a human can detect anything outside of the universe when they can't even point to the center of their own galaxy on a star filled night.

I can show evidence that a human being alone without any instrumentation is incapable of knowing what lies beyond our universe or even beyond the four walls of a padded room that contain no windows.

The part about "despite superior evidence to the contrary" only shows that this is a poorly worded definition.

I offer you these
Psychiatry . a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
Delusion of Grandeur - characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. This delusion can also turned onto other people or invisible, intangible gods that live outside of the universe.

My special friend is the most powerful being in the whole universe.

I am god - provide evidence to the contrary otherwise I'm not suffering from a delusion.

Your position is patently stupid.

PS. Agnostic Atheism doesn't promote any beliefs. Not one. Individuals describe themselves using these terms to denote a person who does not believe in any gods because there isn't sufficient evidence to hold that belief.

If there was a word to denote people who don't believe in bigfoot, the tooth fairy, santa claus, and other fictional story characters, then we could describe ourselves as that too.
And again, that position held by those people wouldn't be a belief system. It would be people using their fucking brains.

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