I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
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07-02-2011, 10:36 AM
 
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
First off thanks for the kind words, its been 5 years so time has dulled the pain a bit. I think something we all know as atheists is that when it comes to belief the KEY thing that keeps the most skeptical christian hangin on is death! Their own, their grandpappy, their moms, especially their kids. You and I are very comfortable in thinking that we are temporary beings, and when we are gone we are but temporary memories, but for some this is just unthinkable! I think for these people the best we can hope for is my wife's situation which is simply put a mild comforting illusion. She's not giving money to some false prophet, trying the convice others her way is righteous, or really altering her life in any decernable way. She just would like to be left alone in her thought that there is something more beyond death, and that its hopefully its peaceful. There is great danger though in those who willfully take advantage of people in these states.
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07-02-2011, 10:38 AM
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
You're not a jerk.
Beyond circular logic this is the worst : let's pray and all is well.
Don't confront them , that's really the worst dick move possible.
If , in a while , they ever ask you casually , then give your opinion , but beyond that it'd be no better than what the WBC does.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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07-02-2011, 12:05 PM
 
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
I don't think you're a jerk to think the way that you do. If you interjected your opinion in this subject then perhaps you might come off as a jerk. When people are going through the grieving process after losing a loved one, I make sure I keep my mouth shut on my opinion of the subject. The thought of the person living on or watching them from above is a comforting one, and I believe is one of the biggest strongholds of religious concepts.

I could not imagine losing my little girl and the very thought of it is difficult to consider, but if that happened, I don't think it would change my views of the world. My family would certainly be thinking along those lines and it would provide comfort for them, I wouldn't want to take that away. Religion does have some valuable aspects and coping with death is one of them. To me, I find it more comforting to know that the death of a loved one has nothing to do with a choice made by a God, it's just something that happened as a result of circumstance and there is no rhyme or reason. I have nobody to be angry with, and for me, it's better that way.

Anyways, this is the subject of the next TTA podcast on Saturday Feb 12th, so that might be a good podcast to listen to or participate in.
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08-02-2011, 07:07 AM
 
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
The worst would be those crazy Jehovah witness's that refuse blood transfusion and other medical procedures. If a 3yr old died because they needed a blood transfusion that would likely save their life, I would be a complete jerk to their parents for their STUPIDNESS.
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08-02-2011, 09:00 AM
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
Hey, Free Thinker.

So would you be a jerk to Bob Marley for his stupidness? I can only imagine his parents are dead. Perhaps you could be a jerk to Ziggy. Granted, Bob's beliefs didn't lead to the death of a 3-year-old, but the number 3 was involved. He was 36. The first number is clearly a 3 and the second is divisible by 3. Soooooo... buttons.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-02-2011, 06:44 AM
 
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
I really don't care if someone wants to be a Jehovah they can believe in whatever they want. My post was intended to be about when religion effects children, and not just brainwashing them with beliefs but when it directly affects their health. I don't see what Marley or Ziggy have to do with anything, but if a child died and their belief system had something to do with it, then YES I would call them fucking STUPID and be a jerk!
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09-02-2011, 10:31 AM
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
Hey, Free Thinker.

Bob Marley had cancer in his toe, refused to have it amputated because of his Rastafarian beliefs, it spread to his brain and killed him. So I was trying to ascertain if you would call anyone stupid for refusing treatment. But you clarified that it has nothing to do with the belief itself, but that you seem to see allowing a child to die to satisfy beliefs when it could otherwise be saved as parental negligence. So you would feel free to be a jerk to them. Am I in the ballpark?

I'm a prime directive kind of guy myself. I don't judge other cultures. For example, I remember hearing about a tribe in South America that comitted infanticide whenever a third child was born. The reason was that a parent could only move through the woods with one child in their arms. One mother, one father, two children. A third was a liability so they killed it.

Similarly, if twins were born to the San (I read this years ago) they would bury one of them alive and move on.

You and I live in a culture where infanticide is an absolute taboo, where suicide is largely a taboo and where we expect everyone to survive (despite whatever ailments they might have, or despite whatever burden they might pose to parents, or the state, or the medical system and despite their own wishes for a swift and dignified death). So I'm now trying to determine if your issue with the child dying has to do with not ever wanting to see a child die (for whatever reason) or if your issue is with any belief system that would lead to a child's death (be it Theistic or secular but simply different from yours), or if your issue is with a Theistic belief system that would lead to a child's death (Theism itself being the issue). Could you speak to that?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-02-2011, 08:30 PM
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
I don't know, all those posts in the OP strike me as just coping mechanisms. I personally find it annoying but it's harmless. It helps them. Whatever. I can see why it would annoy though.

Where I take issue is when people think praying actually accomplishes anything other than to make the pray-er feel better about themselves.

My reason for being is to serve as a cat cushion. That is good enough for me. Wink
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09-02-2011, 09:06 PM
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
My thoughts follow more closely to action, but times of mourning are definitely not the time for a sort of action. Your thoughts are in line, and so are your actions.
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09-02-2011, 10:33 PM
 
RE: I'm I a jerk of thinking of this way.
(09-02-2011 10:31 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Free Thinker.

Bob Marley had cancer in his toe, refused to have it amputated because of his Rastafarian beliefs, it spread to his brain and killed him. So I was trying to ascertain if you would call anyone stupid for refusing treatment.

Yes I think he is stupid for refusing treatment due to his "stupid" beliefs, but he could eat shards of glass for all I care, he is(was) only hurting himself.


Quote: But you clarified that it has nothing to do with the belief itself, but that you seem to see allowing a child to die to satisfy beliefs when it could otherwise be saved as parental negligence. So you would feel free to be a jerk to them. Am I in the ballpark?

Religion can be dangerous. I think the state should be able to step in and do what is necessary if a child is not receiving the best medical care available. Dogmatic beliefs can be interpreted as child negligence if the case arises. Take the child away and be a jerk to the parents for all I care.


Quote:I'm a prime directive kind of guy myself. I don't judge other cultures. For example, I remember hearing about a tribe in South America that comitted infanticide whenever a third child was born. The reason was that a parent could only move through the woods with one child in their arms. One mother, one father, two children. A third was a liability so they killed it.

Similarly, if twins were born to the San (I read this years ago) they would bury one of them alive and move on.

You and I live in a culture where infanticide is an absolute taboo, where suicide is largely a taboo and where we expect everyone to survive (despite whatever ailments they might have, or despite whatever burden they might pose to parents, or the state, or the medical system and despite their own wishes for a swift and dignified death). So I'm now trying to determine if your issue with the child dying has to do with not ever wanting to see a child die (for whatever reason) or if your issue is with any belief system that would lead to a child's death (be it Theistic or secular but simply different from yours), or if your issue is with a Theistic belief system that would lead to a child's death (Theism itself being the issue). Could you speak to that?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Yes my issue with with theism, if that is the short answer you are looking for. While I don't "like" the idea of killing a child in the example you gave (tribe in S. Africa) their reason for doing it is out of survival for their family which is almost secular in nature.

I think people should not be deprived of the latest medical technologies to either TREAT or CURE an illness, but at the same time I don't believe in being hooked up to machines to be kept alive as a brain dead vegetable either.

Suicide is not a simple topic. If a regular "healthy" person is suicidal, they have a mental illness that needs attention. If someone has terminal cancer and is in pain 24/7 without a realistic chance of recovering, then Euthanasia should be exercises with discretion (that is my opinion anyways).
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