"I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
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23-03-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(23-03-2016 08:21 AM)Banjo Wrote:  My first job was working on an airfield and flying with cropdusters. I loved it and did not have to attend school.

By the time life became very tough was long after age 4. I still held religion in contempt and immoral.

It was around age 16, when I first read Western philosophy and then the bable I began to despise it. On moral grounds. The degradation of women. The xenophobia. It made me sick. I have been, or had been, fighting it ever since. Which is why I became a minister. To learn it from within.

I despise it to this day. My upbringing had nothing to do with it. It was the text. Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps. I can sort of relate to why it's possible that your views at four might have been in a period where you were adjusted.

But in terms of when you begun to despise religion, at 16, at this point life had already become difficult correct? That you had a variety of very personal events, interactions, and people, I think even your own parent/s that you also despised, and very angry about. You were angry at this point in your life, and not just with some abstract concept of religion, but with real people in your life as well?

If so, when you say it was the Bible, and nothing less, is because you believed you were able to separate the anger, and contempt you felt for other aspects of your life, and the contempt and anger you felt towards the text?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-03-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(22-03-2016 09:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:07 PM)Fireball Wrote:  What was I thinking?!?! Of course there was opium all over the place. I was making a (weak) joke, thinking marijuana. They had way better shit than pot, I guess.


Hashish is cannabis, not opium.

Blush Shows how much I know about it.
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23-03-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(23-03-2016 08:21 AM)Banjo Wrote:  My first job was working on an airfield and flying with cropdusters. I loved it and did not have to attend school.

By the time life became very tough was long after age 4. I still held religion in contempt and immoral.

It was around age 16, when I first read Western philosophy and then the bable I began to despise it. On moral grounds. The degradation of women. The xenophobia. It made me sick. I have been, or had been, fighting it ever since. Which is why I became a minister. To learn it from within.

I despise it to this day. My upbringing had nothing to do with it. It was the text. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:Perhaps. I can sort of relate to why it's possible that your views at four might have been in a period where you were adjusted.

I highly doubt it.

Quote:But in terms of when you begun to despise religion, at 16, at this point life had already become difficult correct?

I had experienced bad events. I saw similar in the text. The bible represented evil. Before it had been stupid. Being older and more discerning, I was able to lay moral judgements upon it, or rather, from within it.

Ethically and morally I saw it as evil in the extreme. By that stage having studied much of history, the 20th century with Nazism and fascism, the bible represented those ideas. Only more so. I saw how xianity inspired such hatred. Not only at that time, but with people such as Thomas Moore who often burned other, but slightly different, believers at the stake.

I knew of Constantine and the troubles he endured due to xians. The council of Nicea and the arguments. Constantius and his own persecution of other xians. The entire thing was hideous.

Quote:That you had a variety of very personal events, interactions, and people, I think even your own parent/s that you also despised, and very angry about.

Your attempt to focus on an anger that was non existent, due to me being self sufficient, is simplistic and childish.

Nothing that happened to me was the result of religion. In fact, religion played no part in my life.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

My problem is with the religion. And the hatefulness for which it stands. Period!

Move on.

Quote:You were angry at this point in your life, and not just with some abstract concept of religion, but with real people in your life as well?

I was not angry. I was determined. The thing that angered me if anything, was my inability to save my mother from MS. For which I held nobody to account. Just as I hold nobody responsible for my cancer today.

MS is a virus. Cancer is a malfunction. Nothing more. Nothing less.


Quote:If so, when you say it was the Bible, and nothing less, is because you believed you were able to separate the anger, and contempt you felt for other aspects of your life, and the contempt and anger you felt towards the text?

You are making assumptions again. Did you fail to read what I said above regarding the word "assume"?

The text is evil IMO. Rape, genocide, theft, murder, all excused. This does not represent good nor enlightened ethics.

No wonder the Greek philosophers laughed Paul out of Athens.

Your attempt to shift blame upon me is foolish and childish. As I said, I was more mature than you at 4.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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23-03-2016, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 10:39 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(23-03-2016 09:37 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I was not angry. I was determined. The thing that angered me if anything, was my inability to save my mother from MS. For which I held nobody to account. Just as I hold nobody responsible for my cancer today.

MS is a virus. Cancer is a malfunction. Nothing more. Nothing less.

When it came to your mother's MS and your inability to save her you were angry about that, though you had no one to blame.

And from what I remember you've spoken on numerous occasions about a variety of experiences in your life, which I would think any normal person would feel a great deal of anger about.

So clearly you were angry about a variety of things, and not just religion. It's something that you seems to be suggesting here, that I'm looking for a more honest response to.

Do you think you're able to separate your anger and contempt in regards to religion, from the anger and contempt you feel about your series of misfortune life events? That a person's anger is divisible in such a way? I don't believe that's possible. But I would like to know whether you honestly believe otherwise?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-03-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(22-03-2016 01:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I thought this was interesting, and perhaps controversial for some here. So I thought I'd share:

The New Psychology of Atheism
New research reveals some of the emotional factors involved in disbelief.
Posted Mar 21, 2016


""Results showed that 54% of those who self-reported that they were atheists or agnostics indicated some relational and emotional reasons for nonbelief. In the second study, 72% of 429 American adults who expressed some level of atheism or agnosticism endorsed similar reasons. In both studies, the extent to which research participants revealed relational and emotional reasons for nonbelief was associated with various indicators of negative emotionality, such as trait anger, psychological entitlement, and fearful / preoccupied attachment styles."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...gy-atheism

You reminded me of a friend I have at my workplace. He is a Mormon and I used to be one. We talk about Mormonism often.

One former Mormon named Jeremy wrote a famous letter called "Letter to the CES Director". CES stands for Church Education System. His letter was a systematic series of questions that prove the Mormon church is a fraud. Usually, Mormons consider anything criticizing their faith to be "Anti-Mormon" and thus beyond all consideration.

My friend decided to read the letter. This is rare. He told me that none of the information in it mattered to him at all. He told me that as long as he believed that Mormonism was inspired by God, nothing had to make logical sense. Why couldn't God work a inspiration through a fraud?

I told him that his thinking was impossible to disprove, ever, regardless of the information available. He would continue to believe in Mormonism even if it the church leaders themselves announced their church was a fraud. His reasoning began and ended in the same location, belief.

So ask yourself, why would anybody think like that? Why begin with a conclusion, and then make it impossible to be proven wrong, even if you actually are proven wrong? Easy. He wants to believe in Mormonism. He doesn't just enjoy it. The entire meaning of his existence hangs in the balance. I asked him once what he would do, and how he would feel if he found out there was no God all along. He told me, he would kill himself. He told me there would be no hope in the universe for him, or anyone else.

What I really think is that most believers are hypocrites. When they aren't telling Atheists that they must be hopeless, forlorn, empty, and unhappy, they are telling us that we only choose to live like this because of the emotional benefits. Make up your mind. Ask yourself, which is the case for you? If emotions are so important, what are yours? Would you rather there was a God, and a particular cult to worship it, or not? Why?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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23-03-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(23-03-2016 11:54 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  So ask yourself, why would anybody think like that? Why begin with a conclusion, and then make it impossible to be proven wrong, even if you actually are proven wrong? Easy. He wants to believe in Mormonism. He doesn't just enjoy it. The entire meaning of his existence hangs in the balance. I asked him once what he would do, and how he would feel if he found out there was no God all along. He told me, he would kill himself. He told me there would be no hope in the universe for him, or anyone else.

I don't even have to ask, I know plenty of folks like that, people whose life, community, meaning, happiness, is often tied to their religion, and not just in terms of belief, but often in terms of relationships as well.

The answer to that is a universal thing here, that being a Mormon, or Christian, or even an Atheist, defining oneself as rationalist, as skeptic etc.. often are aspects of our identity. No one is particularly eager to find themselves in a position where they no longer know themselves. And will often place themselves among others that only reinforce who they are, regardless if they are being honest with themselves or not.

Quote:What I really think is that most believers are hypocrites. When they aren't telling Atheists that they must be hopeless, forlorn, empty, and unhappy, they are telling us that we only choose to live like this because of the emotional benefits. Make up your mind.

I think you're conflating a variety of different religious minds you've encountered into one mind, perhaps attributing that to my own as well. I think there are emotional factors in play for whatever sort of identity we eventually form for ourselves. Clearly a person's atheism is something that matter to them a great deal, you have pins, and conferences dedicated to it, campaigns to encourage more atheism, delight when you see your number boosted, delight when someone loses their religious belief.

There's a great deal of attachment to it, similar to how people are attached to their religious identity. And there's a variety of questions to explore with this, beyond the common slogan that I'm an atheist because of a lack of evidence.

Quote:Ask yourself, which is the case for you? If emotions are so important, what are yours? Would you rather there was a God, and a particular cult to worship it, or not? Why?

I wouldn't even know how not to believe. As much time as I've spent among unbelievers, I have no clue were to begin to not believe what I do, to be an atheists. So the questions that interest me is to why that is, what puts us on two separate ends of the track. And the differences don't begin and end on solely one question either.

I also think emotions, our emotional states are an important part of who we are. That's the idea of some rational self, an objective self, removed from our often difficult emotional states is a myth, an excuse to be able to hide and lose ourselves. That someone surrounded by positive religious experiences, good religious role models to aspire to, etc... will likely be a believer, while someone with negative experiences would be inclined more towards atheism. Thats folks uncomfortable with their subjective, emotional states, the problems of their own person lives, might be inclined to find comfort in the idea of an objective and rational self, that they imagine transcends the troubles of their lives.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-03-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(23-03-2016 01:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think you're conflating a variety of different religious minds you've encountered into one mind, perhaps attributing that to my own as well.

[Image: mlfw10086-360693__safe_applejack_solo_an...ntense.gif]

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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23-03-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
I would say, speaking only for myself, emotions played a far greater role in keeping me a "believer" than when I finally removed those god-glasses. For me logic and reason are more responsible for my atheism.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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23-03-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
(23-03-2016 01:06 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I wouldn't even know how not to believe. As much time as I've spent among unbelievers, I have no clue were to begin to not believe what I do, to be an atheists. So the questions that interest me is to why that is, what puts us on two separate ends of the track. And the differences don't begin and end on solely one question either.

I've said it a couple times I think. It seems to be because you have this notion of "worldview" that you think matters. You seem to think there is a thing that is a worldview and it's not just a random weird concept without real good definition. You indicate it should be some ordered understood idea of how things work.

Well, many people don't have that and don't need or live their lives with a hell of an understanding of how things work. they can and most can make do with just seeing absurdity or strangenesses out there without having to fit it into a label or understood idea. Perhaps they don't have an answer for how 2 lead to 40 because they didn't figure out the inbetween, but it doesn't have to be a settled matter for them to accept what is.

(as you've called me scatterbrained, yes not your term... my term, before I don't know if that makes any sense to you)

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-03-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: "I'm an Atheists for Emotional Reasons."
So what is more important to you Tomasia, your identity and emotions, or the truth? Are you content to be surrounded by "positive religious experiences" even if religion isn't true?

I know that an overwhelming majority of believers I encounter in life have hypocritical views regarding Atheism. I have been having these conversations for a long time. Unless you want to conduct a painfully literal conversation, I would suggest you consider that every general statement has qualifiers. These generalities are intended to speed things up. As far as you, I don't know yet. Do you think Atheists are necessarily miserable? Do you think they are motivated primarily by the emotional benefits of Atheism? Do you believe both? Why or why not?

What if you knew there was no god. What would your life be like? What do you imagine?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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