I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
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05-03-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
Hey Onedream,

I was always curious about nonbelievers, such as you and I, working in the Ministry business. I always regarded the place as a less than ideal place to be, but if it is for the sake of your family, I would continue working. Just like I would steal to feed the people I care about, I would work in a church if I had no better alternatives.

I honestly ain't worried about living a lie, because there are worse things you could be doing to try to feed your family.

I do hope you share some perspectives about this occupation and stuff in the forum, would be a helluva interesting read.
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05-03-2013, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 04:21 PM by Vosur.)
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
(05-03-2013 03:02 PM)onedream Wrote:  If God does exist and bad things happen, he's either impotent and CAN'T prevent them. Or he can prevent them and doesn't, which makes him evil. That's a paraphrase from Christopher Hitchens.
I prefer Epicurus' trilemma personally. Yes

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

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06-03-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
Thanks, man.

I just joined the clergy project. I had my interview on the phone with them 10 minutes ago.

Thanks for your encouragement as well.


(05-03-2013 04:16 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Hey Onedream,

I was always curious about nonbelievers, such as you and I, working in the Ministry business. I always regarded the place as a less than ideal place to be, but if it is for the sake of your family, I would continue working. Just like I would steal to feed the people I care about, I would work in a church if I had no better alternatives.

I honestly ain't worried about living a lie, because there are worse things you could be doing to try to feed your family.

I do hope you share some perspectives about this occupation and stuff in the forum, would be a helluva interesting read.
Thumbsup


-Steven
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06-03-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
Brilliant. I've never seen that Trilemma before. Thanks for posting it.

(05-03-2013 04:18 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 03:02 PM)onedream Wrote:  If God does exist and bad things happen, he's either impotent and CAN'T prevent them. Or he can prevent them and doesn't, which makes him evil. That's a paraphrase from Christopher Hitchens.
I prefer Epicurus' trilemma personally. Yes

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
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06-03-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
(06-03-2013 01:42 PM)onedream Wrote:  Brilliant. I've never seen that Trilemma before. Thanks for posting it.
You're welcome. What makes me appreciate Epicurus' trilemma even more is the fact that he lived around 300 B.C.

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06-03-2013, 05:08 PM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
HOLY CRAP! WOW.

That further illustrates to me the fact that morality was around WAY before the Jews received their commandments.

These laws of morality have developed over Hundreds of Thousands of years of social evolution.

Hopefully as time goes on, we learn to treat one another better and hone those morays.

This book by Steven Pinker shows how violence and injustice against one another (overall) has decreased (not increased) world wide as we've gotten further along. The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined

So it would seem (for the most part, with a few exceptions) that we are becoming more moral as a species as time marches on. Hopefully an evolution that continues.

(06-03-2013 01:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 01:42 PM)onedream Wrote:  Brilliant. I've never seen that Trilemma before. Thanks for posting it.
You're welcome. What makes me appreciate Epicurus' trilemma even more is the fact that he lived around 300 B.C.
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06-03-2013, 08:28 PM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
(06-03-2013 05:08 PM)onedream Wrote:  HOLY CRAP! WOW.

That further illustrates to me the fact that morality was around WAY before the Jews received their commandments.

These laws of morality have developed over Hundreds of Thousands of years of social evolution.

Hopefully as time goes on, we learn to treat one another better and hone those morays.

This book by Steven Pinker shows how violence and injustice against one another (overall) has decreased (not increased) world wide as we've gotten further along. The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined

So it would seem (for the most part, with a few exceptions) that we are becoming more moral as a species as time marches on. Hopefully an evolution that continues.

(06-03-2013 01:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You're welcome. What makes me appreciate Epicurus' trilemma even more is the fact that he lived around 300 B.C.
Actually, there are numerous documents, like the Code of Hammurabi, that have tenets that we would consider moral. The code of Hammurabi was around way before the pitiful "Ten Commandments" (Which Ten though, there are two "Ten" I am familar with). When you look through the scope of an evolutionary altruism, it makes sense that other cultures have some of the same moral codes as others. It is innate, and there are no need for silly stone tablets.

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07-03-2013, 03:11 AM
RE: I'm an agnostic. And I work in Christian Ministry
(06-03-2013 05:08 PM)onedream Wrote:  That further illustrates to me the fact that morality was around WAY before the Jews received their commandments.
While that is certainly true, there are far better examples than Epicurus to prove that. The Egyptian concept of truth, balance, order, law, morality, and justice, which is commonly known by the name "Ma'at", has been around for thousands of years before the Dead Sea Scrolls (the oldest known Old Testament documents) were written. Certain Hindu scriptures, such as the Bhagavad Gita, also date back several thousand years B.C. It should be obvious to everyone, even those who don't know about these texts, that humans wouldn't have been able to survive for this long if they didn't have a sense of right and wrong prior to Yahweh's alleged intervention in human affairs.

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