I'm losing my faith
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08-03-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:11 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Oh, dear god, not the garage dragon thread again....
Gasp

I'd stop bringing it up, but for some reason, it just never stops being relevant.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-03-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It doesn't.
Why not?
(08-03-2016 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you define "god" in such a way that it can never be proven to exist, ever, then it is a garage dragon.
Not even close. This is a ridiculous comparison. You can't set up a straw man argument to avoid the topic of God.
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08-03-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:08 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:49 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Have you read the entire Bible? From OT to NT? I am asking because many Christians have not.
I have not. I more than likely have collectively heard it 2 or 3 times but have not read it. My knowledge of the faith is comparable to the knowledge a high school student has of physics. I have heard of it, even studied the surface of it, probably have even heard and doubted something I heard, but I definitely know it's real and that people know it much better than I.

You can't even be bothered to read the book on which your faith is based?

You need to do some homework. How about you start on Genesis tonight?
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08-03-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:08 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:49 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Have you read the entire Bible? From OT to NT? I am asking because many Christians have not.
I have not. I more than likely have collectively heard it 2 or 3 times but have not read it. My knowledge of the faith is comparable to the knowledge a high school student has of physics. I have heard of it, even studied the surface of it, probably have even heard and doubted something I heard, but I definitely know it's real and that people know it much better than I.

I was just asking because what turned me to my path to atheism was actually reading the entire Bible myself. When you mentioned in your post the Bible does have science in it--I kinda thought you might not have actually read it --the entire thing I mean Wink

Here's a few (of the many) things the Bible has:

A talking donkey.

A version of the Walking Dead where dead saints rise from their graves and walk around the city.

A person being turned into salt.

A world-wide flood that we have zero evidence for.

People living to extraordinarily long ages--500 years, 900 years etc.

Angels flying around with hot coals.

God appearing as a burning bush.

A firmament over the top of the earth.

Creation story at complete odds with scientific findings. (We know we didn't come from dust and a rib).

A talking snake.

These are just a few of the many things you will find in the Bible that are at complete odds with reality.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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08-03-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:36 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I'll start by just asking you why all the way to atheism?

"All the way to atheism"? An atheist is just somebody who does not accept the claim that a god exists. Some atheists are gnostic atheists (aka strong atheists) who claim to know that no god exists. Most, in my experience anyway, are agnostic atheists (aka weak atheists) who do not claim knowledge but just have found no good reason to believe.

Theists often seem to limit the term 'atheist' to strong atheism and use 'agnostic' for weak atheism. If you are going to interact with atheists you should understand how the terms are generally used on this side of the fence.

atheism/theism -- whether you believe or not
agnostic/gnostic -- whether you claim knowledge or not

I was going to say all of this in my reply but I thought I should establish a conversation with him first and I knew what he meant. He was wondering why or how I dismissed every god.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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08-03-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:22 PM)julep Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:08 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I have not. I more than likely have collectively heard it 2 or 3 times but have not read it. My knowledge of the faith is comparable to the knowledge a high school student has of physics. I have heard of it, even studied the surface of it, probably have even heard and doubted something I heard, but I definitely know it's real and that people know it much better than I.

You can't even be bothered to read the book on which your faith is based?

You need to do some homework. How about you start on Genesis tonight?

Agreed, you owe it to yourself to know what it is you truly believe. Who knows you might just pull back the curtain like many of us did and be surprised at what you find there. Don't live your life based on what someone tells you is truth. Live your life based on thinking for yourself, asking questions, finding answers.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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08-03-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:28 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:22 PM)julep Wrote:  You can't even be bothered to read the book on which your faith is based?

You need to do some homework. How about you start on Genesis tonight?

Agreed, you owe it to yourself to know what it is you truly believe. Who knows you might just pull back the curtain like many of us did and be surprised at what you find there. Don't live your life based on what someone tells you is truth. Live your life based on thinking for yourself, asking questions, finding answers.

But, I think Kazoo is the type that doesn't need a book, he FEELS god and does think for himself, it's just that he thinks what he sees is a result of god. I am not saying this with any sarcasm. I encounter people like this all of the time on Omegle. They don't care about the bible or even religion, they just believe, with zero evidence or documentation or corroboration, that there must be a god. Am I wrong, Zoo?

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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08-03-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That is somewhat incoherent. Science cannot "point towards" an unfalsifiable supposition.

You should really start by defining 'God' in a satisfactory way - not that I've ever seen it done - but I'll instead say that divine intervention would of necessity be observable, demonstrable, and verifiable - or else utterly meaningless. Which is why we're invariably left with deism as the only truly unfalsifiable-in-principle 'religious' claim...
Seriously? You asked where it comes from and then complain about my logical order. I'm not writing entire proofs to answer the question. Where does it come from? That should be a simple answer.

(08-03-2016 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  This only comes back to my ongoing point: there is not a Christianity. There are a great many.

Different Christian sects differ from each other, fundamentally and incompatibly, on such basal things as the nature of salvation and Christ himself. It's all superficially well and good to say 'tradition'; whose tradition?
(notwithstanding further those historical traditions which were, ah, terminated with extreme prejudice along the way)
Up until the 1600s there was only 2 churches eastern and western with only one thing separating them. The papacy. The second Martin Luther offered the idea of sola scriptura is when the church splinters into an infinite number of churches. This is a real world example of why sola scriptura doesn't work. People think differently I get that, but the religion wasn't designed to be interpreted it was designed to be revealed as is. The Catholic churches have observed the same traditions and doctrinal teachings for 2000 years. The droctines have gone completely unchanged. Those docticnes are the doctrine of Christianity not the Everyman for himself doctrine.
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08-03-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It doesn't.

Why not?

Because no scientific inquiry has ever produced evidence for the existence of God. Those things that are claimed as evidence are either demonstrably flawed or false in some way (faith healing and the like) or simple non sequiturs (creationists asserting that complexity indicates intelligent design).

There is no scientific evidence for the existence of a god.

(08-03-2016 03:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you define "god" in such a way that it can never be proven to exist, ever, then it is a garage dragon.
Not even close. This is a ridiculous comparison. You can't set up a straw man argument to avoid the topic of God.

It isn't a straw man argument. If you say that God can never be scientifically proven to exist, then he is a garage dragon.

Anything that can be detected can be scientifically proven to exist. That's rather what it means to say that you can prove something exists, in fact. Therefore, if you define an entity in such a way that it is impossible to scientifically prove that it exists, that entity must be entirely undetectable.

An undetectable entity is a garage dragon, and garage dragons do not exist.

Note, however, that most definitions of God are not garage dragons, as they supposedly interact with the universe in some way. This interaction is, at least in principle, detectable, and so most gods are not garage dragons. The only god that really falls under the garage dragon label is the deist god - one that is believed to never interact with the universe in any way.

Presumably, you believe that your god interacts with the universe somehow, which means that it isn't a garage dragon. My point was largely tangential, to get a potential point of confusion out of the way early on.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-03-2016, 03:43 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:22 PM)julep Wrote:  You can't even be bothered to read the book on which your faith is based?

You need to do some homework. How about you start on Genesis tonight?
I just finished saying the Bible is not the foundation of the faith. Up until 50 or so ad the New Testament wasn't even written but Christianity existed. Up until about the 5th or 6th century the cannon wasn't even decided but Christianity was becoming a world known faith. And finally up until the 1600s the majority of people didn't have access to the Bible and Christianity was largest collection of beings on earth. The bible has not been and never will be the foundation of Christianity.
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