I'm losing my faith
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08-03-2016, 03:46 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:32 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  But, I think Kazoo is the type that doesn't need a book, he FEELS god and does think for himself, it's just that he thinks what he sees is a result of god. I am not saying this with any sarcasm. I encounter people like this all of the time on Omegle. They don't care about the bible or even religion, they just believe, with zero evidence or documentation or corroboration, that there must be a god. Am I wrong, Zoo?
Very wrong, Christianity didn't become the the most known faith on earth because everyone felt there way to God.
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08-03-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:43 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:22 PM)julep Wrote:  You can't even be bothered to read the book on which your faith is based?

You need to do some homework. How about you start on Genesis tonight?
I just finished saying the Bible is not the foundation of the faith. Up until 50 or so ad the New Testament wasn't even written but Christianity existed. Up until about the 5th or 6th century the cannon wasn't even decided but Christianity was becoming a world known faith. And finally up until the 1600s the majority of people didn't have access to the Bible and Christianity was largest collection of beings on earth. The bible has not been and never will be the foundation of Christianity.

If you don't read or use the Bible--how do you know what you are supposed to be doing re: God? If you can't trust the Bible as you say--that it is no foundation for Christianity--how can you use any of it as any source of foundation for God or otherwise?

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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08-03-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:23 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:08 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I have not. I more than likely have collectively heard it 2 or 3 times but have not read it. My knowledge of the faith is comparable to the knowledge a high school student has of physics. I have heard of it, even studied the surface of it, probably have even heard and doubted something I heard, but I definitely know it's real and that people know it much better than I.

I was just asking because what turned me to my path to atheism was actually reading the entire Bible myself. When you mentioned in your post the Bible does have science in it--I kinda thought you might not have actually read it --the entire thing I mean Wink

Here's a few (of the many) things the Bible has:

A talking donkey.

A version of the Walking Dead where dead saints rise from their graves and walk around the city.

A person being turned into salt.

A world-wide flood that we have zero evidence for.

People living to extraordinarily long ages--500 years, 900 years etc.

Angels flying around with hot coals.

God appearing as a burning bush.

A firmament over the top of the earth.

Creation story at complete odds with scientific findings. (We know we didn't come from dust and a rib).

A talking snake.

These are just a few of the many things you will find in the Bible that are at complete odds with reality.
And here are a few things science thought

The earth was flat ( proven wrong by first Muslims and then Jesuit Catholics and then Kepler.)
The earth was the center of the universe
Atoms were like plumb pudding
Gravity was a pulling force.
Energy was scalar
Cold was a type of energy
We can keep going.

A book can always be an allegory, we don't know what the writers were trying to relay. Science is obvious, they wanted to empirically describe the world.
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08-03-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:32 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That is somewhat incoherent. Science cannot "point towards" an unfalsifiable supposition.

You should really start by defining 'God' in a satisfactory way - not that I've ever seen it done - but I'll instead say that divine intervention would of necessity be observable, demonstrable, and verifiable - or else utterly meaningless. Which is why we're invariably left with deism as the only truly unfalsifiable-in-principle 'religious' claim...
Seriously? You asked where it comes from and then complain about my logical order. I'm not writing entire proofs to answer the question. Where does it come from? That should be a simple answer.

If you claim that science points towards God, you must define God for the statement to contain any meaning at all.

(08-03-2016 03:32 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  This only comes back to my ongoing point: there is not a Christianity. There are a great many.

Different Christian sects differ from each other, fundamentally and incompatibly, on such basal things as the nature of salvation and Christ himself. It's all superficially well and good to say 'tradition'; whose tradition?
(notwithstanding further those historical traditions which were, ah, terminated with extreme prejudice along the way)
Up until the 1600s there was only 2 churches eastern and western with only one thing separating them. The papacy. The second Martin Luther offered the idea of sola scriptura is when the church splinters into an infinite number of churches. This is a real world example of why sola scriptura doesn't work. People think differently I get that, but the religion wasn't designed to be interpreted it was designed to be revealed as is. The Catholic churches have observed the same traditions and doctrinal teachings for 2000 years. The droctines have gone completely unchanged. Those docticnes are the doctrine of Christianity not the Everyman for himself doctrine.

This is utterly ignorant and demonstrably false. Christianity is far more diverse than you know.

Here are some keywords to begin your study: Ecumenical Councils.
(particularly: Nicaea, Chalcedon, Lateran)

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08-03-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  And here are a few things science thought

Let us first begin by noting that science is supposed to change.

So, you know, literally the exact opposite of scripture?

I mean, saying "but, it gets better over time!" is supposed to be... bad? How?

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  The earth was flat ( proven wrong by first Muslims and then Jesuit Catholics and then Kepler.)

Proven wrong by the ancient Greeks, actually.

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  The earth was the center of the universe

Never a coherent or prevailing scientific theory; since disproven by actual science.

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Atoms were like plumb pudding

An incremental theory, superseded by better models.

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Gravity was a pulling force.

An incremental theory, superseded by better models.

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Energy was scalar

Still true, actually.

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Cold was a type of energy

Never a coherent or prevailing scientific theory; since disproven by actual science.

(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  We can keep going.

I don't think you even understand what you're trying to argue.

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08-03-2016, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2016 04:02 PM by Babakazoo.)
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:50 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:43 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I just finished saying the Bible is not the foundation of the faith. Up until 50 or so ad the New Testament wasn't even written but Christianity existed. Up until about the 5th or 6th century the cannon wasn't even decided but Christianity was becoming a world known faith. And finally up until the 1600s the majority of people didn't have access to the Bible and Christianity was largest collection of beings on earth. The bible has not been and never will be the foundation of Christianity.

If you don't read or use the Bible--how do you know what you are supposed to be doing re: God? If you can't trust the Bible as you say--that it is no foundation for Christianity--how can you use any of it as any source of foundation for God or otherwise?
I definitely have read parts if and do use all of the Bible. I definitely can trust the Bible for a lot it's just not foundational. As I said before scriptures combined with tradition is what stands. You need both not Just one or the other.
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08-03-2016, 03:59 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:43 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  And finally up until the 1600s the majority of people didn't have access to the Bible and Christianity was largest collection of beings on earth.

Incidentally, this is because the Catholic church possessed enormous political and financial power during this period in history (and wielded a great deal of de facto military power to boot), and was heavily invested in keeping that power. Most people lacked access to the Bible during this point in time specifically because the church denied it to them by ensuring that it was only disseminated in Latin (generally only spoken by church officials and, perhaps, the nobility), while doing everything they could to discourage translation to the vernacular.

Actual enforcement of this varied depending on date, location, and circumstance, of course, but as a general rule, the church liked to keep the Bible to itself during the Middle Ages. It was an easy means of keeping control over the parishioners.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-03-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  And here are a few things science thought

The earth was flat ( proven wrong by first Muslims and then Jesuit Catholics and then Kepler.)
The earth was the center of the universe
Atoms were like plumb pudding
Gravity was a pulling force.
Energy was scalar
Cold was a type of energy
We can keep going.

And your point is...?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-03-2016, 04:10 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:53 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:23 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I was just asking because what turned me to my path to atheism was actually reading the entire Bible myself. When you mentioned in your post the Bible does have science in it--I kinda thought you might not have actually read it --the entire thing I mean Wink

Here's a few (of the many) things the Bible has:

A talking donkey.

A version of the Walking Dead where dead saints rise from their graves and walk around the city.

A person being turned into salt.

A world-wide flood that we have zero evidence for.

People living to extraordinarily long ages--500 years, 900 years etc.

Angels flying around with hot coals.

God appearing as a burning bush.

A firmament over the top of the earth.

Creation story at complete odds with scientific findings. (We know we didn't come from dust and a rib).

A talking snake.

These are just a few of the many things you will find in the Bible that are at complete odds with reality.
And here are a few things science thought

The earth was flat ( proven wrong by first Muslims and then Jesuit Catholics and then Kepler.)
The earth was the center of the universe
Atoms were like plumb pudding
Gravity was a pulling force.
Energy was scalar
Cold was a type of energy
We can keep going.

A book can always be an allegory, we don't know what the writers were trying to relay. Science is obvious, they wanted to empirically describe the world.

Yes, but scientists never claimed to be an all-knowing deity. As far as not knowing what the writers were trying to relay--that seems kind of silly doesn't it? God is trying desperately to communicate with us via his book and we don't really know what the writers were trying to say and have to speculate on allegory (us mere humans speculating on an all-knowing, all-powerful being's words?

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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08-03-2016, 04:10 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:43 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 03:22 PM)julep Wrote:  You can't even be bothered to read the book on which your faith is based?

You need to do some homework. How about you start on Genesis tonight?
I just finished saying the Bible is not the foundation of the faith. Up until 50 or so ad the New Testament wasn't even written but Christianity existed. Up until about the 5th or 6th century the cannon wasn't even decided but Christianity was becoming a world known faith. And finally up until the 1600s the majority of people didn't have access to the Bible and Christianity was largest collection of beings on earth. The bible has not been and never will be the foundation of Christianity.

If you haven't bothered to read the Bible you should not be making claims about what it says.

Your understanding of even your own church (presuming you are Catholic) is also demonstrably incorrect and incomplete (no doctrinal changes for 2000 years, LMAO). And Christianity has never been the "largest collection of beings on earth," ever.

Again: do a bit of homework before you make your claims if you hope to convince anyone that your points are worthwhile.
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