I'm losing my faith
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06-03-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 08:24 AM)Banjo Wrote:  This is untrue. There is no evidence of the existence of Jesus.

Says you.

Which means as much to me as when a creationist claims there's no evidence for evolution. If you think that a non-existing Yeshua inspired the variety of NT writings, accounts by those who met his disciples and brother, and the first century christian movement, then you deserve a tin-foil hat.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-03-2016, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 09:01 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As far as credentialed individuals, the list of creationists far outshines those of Ahistoricist:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lists_of_cr...scientists

You're comparing apples and oranges. The correct apposition would be creationists and cosmological naturalists, without any reference to the belief in the historicity of Jesus.

Also, this is an appeal to authority, unless these scientists specialize in Middle Eastern Bronze Age history, or Universe Creation.

Finally, even if Jesus existed as a historical person (I'm unsure myself, and don't care enough to research it further), that in no way is evidence for the incredible claims made about him -- son of God, walks on water, etc etc. Buddha existed historically. Does that mean the Wheel of Life is an accurate depiction of the reality of life?
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06-03-2016, 09:00 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 08:49 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As far as credentialed individuals, the list of creationists far outshines those of Ahistoricist:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lists_of_cr...scientists

You're comparing apples and oranges. The correct apposition would be creationists and cosmological naturalists, without any reference to the belief in the historicity of Jesus.

Also, this is an appeal to authority, unless these scientists specialize in Middle Eastern Bronze Age history, or Universe Creation.

No, it's not an appeal to authority, If I was arguing for creationism perhaps it would be, but I'm not.

Some folks here seem to suggest there's a serious debate among historians about whether or not Jesus existed, the entire basis of this claim is pointing to folks like Carrier and Price because they're somewhat reputable in their respective fields, based on their credentials.

By this logic, we might as well suggest there's a serious debate among scientist on whether or not the earth is a few thousands years old, because some of the individuals who make that claim are somewhat reputable in their respective fields (as indicated in the link).

But the reality is that both positions are views are among the ignored fringe, and not part of serious debate among the scientific or historical communities. It's primarily arguments among laymen on the internet.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-03-2016, 09:04 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 08:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 08:07 AM)jennybee Wrote:  There are several reputable scholars/historians that make legitimate claims that question the existence of Jesus. And I believe Richard Carrier, for one--has been peer reviewed.

There are several reputable scientist who are creationist, some of which even subscribe to a young earth, far more so than historians who subscribe to a mythicist or mythicist position. And the bulk of the mythicist position is made by non-scholars and historians, like Archaraya X, Earl Doherty, David Fitzgerald, Brian Fleming, etc...

While you can believe Richard Carrier has written an article arguing for the mythicist view in peer reviewed historical journal, that's more your imagination than a reality. More revealing of what you desire to believe, than what is true.

By the logic used by individuals such as yourself to claim that there's a serious argument among historians as to whether or not there was a historical Jesus, would be just as supportive of the claim that there's a serious argument among scientists as to whether or not the earth is six thousands years old.

Richard Carrier's books have also undergone peer review. I would agree that the Christ myth idea is not as widespread as those scholars/historians who believe Jesus existed as an actual person. However, that does not diminish the ideas that these scholars raise of Jesus' existence and it does not diminish that these reputable scholars are debating Jesus' said existence. Christianity is not really a proponent of people thinking for themselves or any ideas that challenge its existence. The 6,000 year old earth theory had to be challenged by a select few at one point as that was the general overall view for a long time. If no one challenged it--we would all still be left thinking the earth was 6,000 years old. Just because there is a new approach to looking at something (a new scholarly approach mind you) it does not mean it is any less credible than the typical ideology that surrounds the Christian belief system.
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06-03-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 09:04 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Richard Carrier's books have also undergone peer review.

Oh my god just stop. We might as well suggest that Lee Strobel's the Case for Christ has undergone peer review, because a variety of people have read it, and criticized it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-03-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 09:04 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Richard Carrier's books have also undergone peer review.

Oh my god just stop. We might as well suggest that Lee Strobel's the Case for Christ has undergone peer review, because a variety of people have read it, and criticized it.

Lee Strobel has a journalism and law degree. Richard Carrier has a doctorate in Ancient History from Columbia University. I think you are reaching.
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06-03-2016, 09:26 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
At work.

Hug Gameface

Hope folks treat you well. Smile

As for the side conversation? I find it interesting at reading the lack of finesse and precise labguage use of some posters
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06-03-2016, 09:31 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
Sorry for derailing your thread Wink Just trying to show there are other ways of thinking re: your asking about Jesus/Osiris. I am all for putting your thread back on track and as an ex christian myself, I can certainly understand your struggles Smile
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06-03-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 07:28 AM)gameface Wrote:  I'm really messed up right now, growing up from a Christian home and it's expected for you to go to church and follow the doctrine of the Bible. There are some unsolved questions that are making me doubt my faith in the Bible. Firstly, My problem is when was the dinosaur Era in the Bible? Let's be factual there, those dinosaur remains and bones are clear empirical evidence that they rule the earth at sometime. Secondly, the birth of Isis is the same as that of Jesus which cast alot if doubt that it's not a mere coincidence. I need some clarification on this.

Apologies:

Welcome.

I hope that you continue to post.

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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06-03-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(06-03-2016 08:41 AM)jabeady Wrote:  Given the effect that "Jesus" has had and continues to have on history and humanity, I see little point in debating whether he was an actual person. The last two thousand years happened, and they continue to shape the world we live in; skeptics should concede the fact and get on with more important matters.

As to dinosaurs and all the rest, Google Carl Sagan's "Cosmic Calendar." It's available in poster form from online stores, or you can just review the different versions online that people have come up with. It will give you a good visual representation of the differences between the Biblical and scientific timelines.

Agreed. Over the scheme of things, I don't think it really matters whether or not Jesus was an actual person. I did find, for me, however, when I was coming out of Christianity, allowing myself to question *everything* really helped.
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