I'm losing my faith
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07-03-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  ...
Alright gameface before you buy into the fallacious views on the Bible both from Christians and non Christians you need to step back and learn the faith for yourself. This forum is going to have extreme biases from both ends. The very first thing you need to look at is how accurate is the Bible and how should it be used. For starters the Bible is a collection of books and letters that may have been inspired by God but are written by humans. Then to further muddy the waters has been translated by humans. The church teaches that the only inspired texts were the originals themselves. No translation is as true as many see it. While they are very accurate and carefully translated from multiple manuscripts and cross referenced with text not within the Bible understand that the Bible you read today is not from God. Secondly the Bible was Inspired and written as a way for God to reveal himself to us in a way we understand. It is not a factual, historical, scientific collection of writings. It does have facts, history, and amazingly even science in it but, it was not written for that so it will not reveal everything about everything. If you want more help discerning truth pm me or reply here. I won't try to push the faith on you or push you away from the faith I will simply lay out facts for you to interpret.

Hi Babakazoo and welcome to TTA.

@gameface, Babakazoo is correct when stating that "the Bible you read today is not from God."

For that you need the Quran ... the unalterable, unaltered and final word of god.

... or more accurately, dictated by the archangel Gabriel, really.

... well, 'final' apart from the Book of Mormon, of course.

... oh and, Mark Dreher's re-write; dictated to him, I think, by his personal goddess.

Laugh out load

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07-03-2016, 07:23 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 05:35 PM)Rik Wrote:  "There are several reputable scientist who are creationist,"

There are absolutely no reputable scientists who are creationists.

And YECS are simply considered ridiculous by reputable scientists.
Creationism isn’t science. There aren’t any peer reviewed published creation science papers.
Science requires observable evidence and requires a natural explanation. Presupposing an invisible unobservable magical intelligence, made of nothing, that arbitrarily chose to blink fully formed animals into existence because it just chose to do so, doesn’t constitute science.

But I suppose that a scientist who focus their education and scientific endeavors on something like chemistry, can, on the side choose to have an unscientific opinion (belief) with regards to “creation”. In this regard their scientific education isn’t employed on this matter. They are offering an unscientific opinion.
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07-03-2016, 08:09 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Alright gameface before you buy into the fallacious views on the Bible both from Christians and non Christians you need to step back and learn the faith for yourself.
How do you know that the OP doesn't know their faith?

(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  This forum is going to have extreme biases from both ends. The very first thing you need to look at is how accurate is the Bible and how should it be used.
Which version of the bible?
Which translation of the bible?
Which version of which translation?

The bible is not historically accurate.

I recommend the Skeptics Annotated Bible.
SAB

(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  For starters the Bible is a collection of books and letters that may have been inspired by God but are written by humans. Then to further muddy the waters has been translated by humans.
Yep. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? What kind of god would inspire a message to save his children from eternal suffering, then allow that vital message to get twisted and distorted by a bunch of poorly evolved primates?

(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  The church teaches that the only inspired texts were the originals themselves. No translation is as true as many see it. While they are very accurate and carefully translated from multiple manuscripts and cross referenced with text not within the Bible understand that the Bible you read today is not from God.
Ummm, no. Read Bart Ehrman, "Misquoting Jesus". Ehrman is one of the best biblical scholars around. He outlines the actual conditions of how the bible was written and disseminated.

(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Secondly the Bible was Inspired and written as a way for God to reveal himself to us in a way we understand. It is not a factual, historical, scientific collection of writings.
Inspired by an omnipotent, omniscient deity? You just finished saying how screwed up it is. If god wanted to reveal himself, why wouldn't he wait two thousand years and do it now? Modern man has been around for 100,000 years, give or take. Why not wait 2,000 more years?

(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  It does have facts, history, and amazingly even science in it but, it was not written for that so it will not reveal everything about everything.
I do not recommend getting science lessons from material written thousands of years ago by cattle-sacrificing, desert-dwelling, primitives.

(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  If you want more help discerning truth pm me or reply here. I won't try to push the faith on you or push you away from the faith I will simply lay out facts for you to interpret.
How would you distinguish faith from gullibility?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-03-2016, 08:09 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 04:51 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 07:28 AM)gameface Wrote:  I'm really messed up right now, growing up from a Christian home and it's expected for you to go to church and follow the doctrine of the Bible. There are some unsolved questions that are making me doubt my faith in the Bible. Firstly, My problem is when was the dinosaur Era in the Bible? Let's be factual there, those dinosaur remains and bones are clear empirical evidence that they rule the earth at sometime. Secondly, the birth of Isis is the same as that of Jesus which cast alot if doubt that it's not a mere coincidence. I need some clarification on this.

Alright gameface before you buy into the fallacious views on the Bible both from Christians and non Christians you need to step back and learn the faith for yourself. This forum is going to have extreme biases from both ends. The very first thing you need to look at is how accurate is the Bible and how should it be used. For starters the Bible is a collection of books and letters that may have been inspired by God but are written by humans. Then to further muddy the waters has been translated by humans. The church teaches that the only inspired texts were the originals themselves. No translation is as true as many see it. While they are very accurate and carefully translated from multiple manuscripts and cross referenced with text not within the Bible understand that the Bible you read today is not from God. Secondly the Bible was Inspired and written as a way for God to reveal himself to us in a way we understand. It is not a factual, historical, scientific collection of writings. It does have facts, history, and amazingly even science in it but, it was not written for that so it will not reveal everything about everything. If you want more help discerning truth pm me or reply here. I won't try to push the faith on you or push you away from the faith I will simply lay out facts for you to interpret.

It has always been interesting to me that God chose to reveal Himself via the written word and yet chose to confound the language of the entire world via the Tower of Babel incident. It seems kind of counterproductive. Consider
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07-03-2016, 08:11 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)jennybee Wrote:  It has always been interesting to me that God chose to reveal Himself via the written word and yet chose to confound the language of the entire world via the Tower of Babel incident. It seems kind of counterproductive.

And give the written word to illiterates, instead of to the cultures of China or India which were much more advanced with elegant, written languages.

Kinda makes you wonder....

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-03-2016, 09:20 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  How do you know that the OP doesn't know their faith?
I only stated that there are fallacious views of the bible nothing else. Do you have a problem with the Bible being seen wrongly? You're sounding like a Christian better be careful.
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Which version of the bible?
Which translation of the bible?
Which version of which translation?

The bible is not historically accurate.

I recommend the Skeptics Annotated Bible.
Why does it matter to you, it seems to be all fake to you. Even If I said original copies. Better learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin you would disagree. The Bible has some books that are more historically accurate than what we teach in public schools as truth.
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yep. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? What kind of god would inspire a message to save his children from eternal suffering, then allow that vital message to get twisted and distorted by a bunch of poorly evolved primates?
Idk? Maybe a just God allowing free will. But whoever said that the primary message got distorted, don't you understand that we have more cross references in history for the Gospels than we do for the majority of history?
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Ummm, no. Read Bart Ehrman, "Misquoting Jesus". Ehrman is one of the best biblical scholars around. He outlines the actual conditions of how the bible was written and disseminated.
I'll check him out. I still stand by my statement that the only inspired ones are the originals.
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Inspired by an omnipotent, omniscient deity? You just finished saying how screwed up it is. If god wanted to reveal himself, why wouldn't he wait two thousand years and do it now? Modern man has been around for 100,000 years, give or take. Why not wait 2,000 more years?
I'm not arguing theology with you. I also said how close to accurate it has been kept read the entirety of the message. You can ask why forever especially when questioning an infinite God so let's just not get into that.
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I do not recommend getting science lessons from material written thousands of years ago by cattle-sacrificing, desert-dwelling, primitives.
I guess the 2nd law of thermodynamics is not good enough science for you.

(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  How would you distinguish faith from gullibility?
The same way you would, logic.
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07-03-2016, 09:27 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 06:07 PM)DLJ Wrote:  ... oh and, Mark Dreher's re-write; dictated to him, I think, by his personal goddess.

Laugh out load
You forgot to mention that the goddess is his wife, who currently takes the form of a pile of sticks and which Mark was very generous in sharing a photo of his fine wedding to said pile.

I couldn't help but shed a tear or two when seeing that special moment captured on film.
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07-03-2016, 09:44 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 08:09 PM)jennybee Wrote:  It has always been interesting to me that God chose to reveal Himself via the written word and yet chose to confound the language of the entire world via the Tower of Babel incident. It seems kind of counterproductive. Consider
Written word wasn't the only revelation. Written word just happens to be how we generally record history. Even if God revealed himself in full 100,000 years ago I would bet we would only have written word of it.
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07-03-2016, 09:56 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I only stated that there are fallacious views of the bible nothing else. Do you have a problem with the Bible being seen wrongly? You're sounding like a Christian better be careful.
Wow. Complete non-sequitur. This does not bode well for your train of logic.

(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Why does it matter to you, it seems to be all fake to you. Even If I said original copies. Better learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin you would disagree. The Bible has some books that are more historically accurate than what we teach in public schools as truth.
The original texts of the bible were written in ancient Greek.

I'm curious as to what you think is more accurate, historically. Cite some verses.

(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Idk? Maybe a just God allowing free will.

You cannot have free will and predestination. It doesn't work like that.

(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  But whoever said that the primary message got distorted, don't you understand that we have more cross references in history for the Gospels than we do for the majority of history?

That is completely false.

The numerous contradictions in the gospels?
A 6000 year old earth?
A flood that goes against every bit geological and archaeological evidence we have?
A flood that covered the world but wasn't noticed by the Egyptians or Chinese?

How about the zombie apocalypse of Jerusalem? When the dead cavorted about the city after the crucifixion?

How about that earthquake that rent the city?

Should I continue?

(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I'm not arguing theology with you. I also said how close to accurate it has been kept read the entirety of the message. You can ask why forever especially when questioning an infinite God so let's just not get into that.
You'll discuss theology with a confused theist looking for answers, but not with an atheist who is asking questions?

(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I guess the 2nd law of thermodynamics is not good enough science for you.
The second law of thermodynamics does not apply. As noted by Lord Kelvin, the sun provides energy to the earth, thus the earth is not a closed system.

Let's contrast that with:

The firmament
The flood
The creation myth
The various miracles
The cosmology

(07-03-2016 09:20 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  The same way you would, logic.
You are not using logic. You are reciting apologetics.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-03-2016, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2016 11:13 PM by Babakazoo.)
RE: I'm losing my faith
(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Wow. Complete non-sequitur. This does not bode well for your train of logic.
remove the not so well crafted joke and it's just a reiteration of my original statement. How is pointing out that there are fallacious views of the bible not make sense?

(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The original texts of the bible were written in ancient Greek.
What? Do you know anything about the Bible?
(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You cannot have free will and predestination. It doesn't work like that.
I never said there was predestination.

(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  That is completely false

The numerous contradictions in the gospels?
A 6000 year old earth?
A flood that goes against every bit geological and archaeological evidence we have?
A flood that covered the world but wasn't noticed by the Egyptians or Chinese?

How about the zombie apocalypse of Jerusalem? When the dead cavorted about the city after the crucifixion?

How about that earthquake that rent the city?

Should I continue?
Contradictory or complimentary? You need to read more than just your anti everything atheists pov books. There is a reason I'm on this forum, it's to learn from the opposing side.
6000 year old earth is a ridiculous assumption based on a book within the Bible not even viewed as absolute history. No right minded person acknowledges a young earth. I'm not your typical Bible thumping anti science Christian. Again Genesis is much more of a teaching book and in a lot of ways an allegory to what the truth was during the early earth. Yeah now you're talking about verifiable history. Read Jewish and Roman historians even Jesus's enemies acknowledge the Gospel accounts.
(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You'll discuss theology with a confused theist looking for answers, but not with an atheist who is asking questions?
Of course. Theology by definition is study of God. Atheism by definition views God as non existent. Why would I discuss the study of God with you before you even acknowledge God? You will see entire statements as false because it's focused on a fairy tale.
(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The second law of thermodynamics does not apply. As noted by Lord Kelvin, the sun provides energy to the earth, thus the earth is not a closed system.
What? Doesn't apply? Just because earth isn't a closed system doesn't mean the entire universe isn't a closed system. The 2nd law of thermodynamics definitely does apply when speaking about the entire universe.
(07-03-2016 09:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You are not using logic. You are reciting apologetics.
you haven't used logic. You've made disjointed assumptions, a very common tactic by uninformed atheists. It's a bunch of diversionary tactics failing to ever focus down on one truth at a time. It's a desperate attempt to make the Christian give up. Similar to how uninformed theists start quoting anything then can.
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