I'm losing my faith
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08-03-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:36 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Cjlr yes, especially that deep booming one.

Willhopp OK well mostly been just reading people's reasoning for different things, I'm no doctor, I don't even have a college degree so I am probably not as good as debating as many on here. I'll start by just asking you why all the way to atheism? Like what made you disregard any God of any sort?

To be honest, I am a career journalist, so my first instinct is to investigate and be dispassionate about the subject. When I finally applied these skills to the god idea, my impartiality led me to the idea that if one god didn't exist, how could I believe any god existed? I researched the reasons people believed, whether it was Zeus, Poseidon, Yahweh, Jesus or Ra, and those reasons held very little water for me. Ultimately, the evidence (or lack thereof) really didn't add up to anything a reasonable, rational person could believe, and I consider myself to be very reasonable and almost always rational.

I can very easily give you the examples and questionable material I referenced, but I don't know if that's what you're looking for or if it's necessary for the purposes of this discussion. But, when a person debunks (for lack of a better term) one god, it's very difficult to have any other god pass muster.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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08-03-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I ask because at that point - anything beyond literal readings of the texts - everyone else who believes, but believes differently than you do, has just as much justification as you have and can ever have.
On a more serious note cjlr I believe science points to a god very well. All of it does, nothing about science can or ever will disprove a God it's literally impossible. Yes it also can't prove a God I know. But I do believe it points in the direction of one. Tradition is really the big crux for most people but, traditional teaching which had been written down just not included in the bible is really the missing part of a full faith for most people. It makes the doctrine of Christianity complete and there is alot of tradition in the church. When combined with scriptures the 2 make a truth that has stood a long period of being heavily scrutinized and oppressed. Yet it still draws over half the world to it every year even if they don't know the fullnes of it.
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08-03-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:46 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I ask because at that point - anything beyond literal readings of the texts - everyone else who believes, but believes differently than you do, has just as much justification as you have and can ever have.
On a more serious note cjlr I believe science points to a god very well. All of it does, nothing about science can or ever will disprove a God it's literally impossible. Yes it also can't prove a God I know. But I do believe it points in the direction of one. Tradition is really the big crux for most people but, traditional teaching which had been written down just not included in the bible is really the missing part of a full faith for most people. It makes the doctrine of Christianity complete and there is alot of tradition in the church. When combined with scriptures the 2 make a truth that has stood a long period of being heavily scrutinized and oppressed. Yet it still draws over half the world to it every year even if they don't know the fullnes of it.

Have you read the entire Bible? From OT to NT? I am asking because many Christians have not.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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08-03-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:46 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  On a more serious note cjlr I believe science points to a god very well.

It doesn't.

(08-03-2016 02:46 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  All of it does, nothing about science can or ever will disprove a God it's literally impossible.

If you define "god" in such a way that it can never be proven to exist, ever, then it is a garage dragon.

Garage dragons do not exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-03-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 01:52 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I literally just got done saying that there are fallacious views on the faith how in the world do you know if this is one of them or not?
If you are speaking about religion as truth, it's fallacious.


(08-03-2016 01:52 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  In a lawsuit against the Vatican, the Church was accused of inventing the story of Jesus' existence. Although the case was thrown out of court in February, 2006, the plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, appealed, but ultimately his case was closed.
Yep. By a court in Rome, a 95% catholic country. He also had to prove that Christ didn't exist which, is impossible on several levels.

So, then we move on to Larry King being stumped or shocked by an atheist. Not sure what that proved, but whatever.
Bertrand Russell, among other things, wrote a much better version of the ten commandments. Not a mention of thought crime in it.

Seriously. Do not cut-n-paste entire webpages. Links.
(If your source is citing movies, that's not a good sign....)
Quote:historians believe Alexander existed because of three primary reasons:

•written documentation from early historians
•historical impact
•other historical and archaeological evidence
I will agree with the above and that it could be used as evidence for the existence of a historical figure.

Historical Documents About Jesus?
Three of the gospels are based off each other. The last, john, is completely different from the first. So you have, essentially, two gospels, that don't agree. the closest you can get from a gospel to the crucifixion is 30-40 years. Lots of time for stories and exaggerations.

The passages in Josephus are questionable. They were written in a different writing style than his other works.
Tacitus, as mentioned in the article was born 25 years after christ's death.

•More books have been written about Jesus than about any other person in history.
So? Doesn't mean they were true.

•Nations have used his words as the bedrock of their governments. According to Durant, "The triumph of Christ was the beginning of democracy."
No, the Greeks invented democracy, long before christ.


•Schools, hospitals, and humanitarian works have been founded in his name.
This is meaningless. The same things have been done by secular people.

•The elevated role of women in Western culture traces its roots back to Jesus. (Women in Jesus' day were considered inferior and virtual nonpersons until his teaching was followed.)
BULLSHIT. How do the gospels record christ speaking to his mother? What about Timothy? "Woman remain silent..."

•Slavery was abolished in Britain and America due to Jesus' teaching that each human life is valuable.
Untrue. One of the founders of the anti slavery movement was Thomas Paine, an avowed atheist. Many of the other members were also unreligious.

•Former drug and alcohol dependents, prostitutes, and others seeking purpose in life claim him as the explanation for their changed lives.
False beliefs can change lives just like true beliefs.

•Two billion people call themselves Christians.
And the billions of Muslims, Hindu, and other faiths think they are wrong. Numbers are not on your side.

Damn, that's enough. I read it, but I'm not ripping the rest up now. It'd take too long.

(08-03-2016 01:52 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  My bad. You just haven't accepted anything I've said. The closed mind leads me to believe you've only educated yourself from one pov.

I haven't accepted anything you've said because you have offered the same bullshit that has been debunked and disproved repeatedly. That's not a closed mind, that's a lack of gullibility.

(08-03-2016 01:52 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Again infinite questions. But just to play the same game
Why would acknowledge string theory, bouncing universes, and singularity theory? None of these are testable they're all hypothetical based on observation. Similar to creationism.
Why would you care about what's happening outside our solar system?
Why would you believe we landed on the moon?
Why would you believe every scientific test ever done? You never did it. It's not verified by your own eyes and your own eyes alone.
So if your god is not real, nothing is real?

Name one thing that science got wrong and religion got right.


(08-03-2016 01:52 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  A post that wasn't even meant for you. ~ snip ~ That's all my goal was.
You posted on an atheist forum. It's an open forum. If you can't handle the replies, it's not my problem.

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08-03-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:46 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I ask because at that point - anything beyond literal readings of the texts - everyone else who believes, but believes differently than you do, has just as much justification as you have and can ever have.
On a more serious note cjlr I believe science points to a god very well. All of it does, nothing about science can or ever will disprove a God it's literally impossible. Yes it also can't prove a God I know. But I do believe it points in the direction of one.

That is somewhat incoherent. Science cannot "point towards" an unfalsifiable supposition.

You should really start by defining 'God' in a satisfactory way - not that I've ever seen it done - but I'll instead say that divine intervention would of necessity be observable, demonstrable, and verifiable - or else utterly meaningless. Which is why we're invariably left with deism as the only truly unfalsifiable-in-principle 'religious' claim...

(08-03-2016 02:46 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  Tradition is really the big crux for most people but, traditional teaching which had been written down just not included in the bible is really the missing part of a full faith for most people. It makes the doctrine of Christianity complete and there is alot of tradition in the church. When combined with scriptures the 2 make a truth that has stood a long period of being heavily scrutinized and oppressed. Yet it still draws over half the world to it every year even if they don't know the fullnes of it.

This only comes back to my ongoing point: there is not a Christianity. There are a great many.

Different Christian sects differ from each other, fundamentally and incompatibly, on such basal things as the nature of salvation and Christ himself. It's all superficially well and good to say 'tradition'; whose tradition?
(notwithstanding further those historical traditions which were, ah, terminated with extreme prejudice along the way)

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08-03-2016, 03:08 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:49 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Have you read the entire Bible? From OT to NT? I am asking because many Christians have not.
I have not. I more than likely have collectively heard it 2 or 3 times but have not read it. My knowledge of the faith is comparable to the knowledge a high school student has of physics. I have heard of it, even studied the surface of it, probably have even heard and doubted something I heard, but I definitely know it's real and that people know it much better than I.
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08-03-2016, 03:10 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:36 PM)Babakazoo Wrote:  I'll start by just asking you why all the way to atheism?

"All the way to atheism"? An atheist is just somebody who does not accept the claim that a god exists. Some atheists are gnostic atheists (aka strong atheists) who claim to know that no god exists. Most, in my experience anyway, are agnostic atheists (aka weak atheists) who do not claim knowledge but just have found no good reason to believe.

Theists often seem to limit the term 'atheist' to strong atheism and use 'agnostic' for weak atheism. If you are going to interact with atheists you should understand how the terms are generally used on this side of the fence.

atheism/theism -- whether you believe or not
agnostic/gnostic -- whether you claim knowledge or not

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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08-03-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you define "god" in such a way that it can never be proven to exist, ever, then it is a garage dragon.

Garage dragons do not exist.

Oh, dear god, not the garage dragon thread again....
Gasp

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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08-03-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: I'm losing my faith
(08-03-2016 03:11 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 02:53 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If you define "god" in such a way that it can never be proven to exist, ever, then it is a garage dragon.

Garage dragons do not exist.

Oh, dear god, not the garage dragon thread again....
Gasp

No worries; Free got too butthurt and flounced off shortly thereafter.

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