I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
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01-06-2017, 06:46 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(31-05-2017 08:04 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We're actually pretty nice people... most of us. Obviously, other than the fact that we acknowledge the real existence of zero gods, there's nothing else that's necessarily in common among atheists. We have nice ones, mean ones, and ones who only get touchy about certain subjects.

One of those subjects common to all of us [edit: "all"... that's a little joke] is when a person accuses us of false things (or generalizations about us that any non-bigot would know better than to say), when they appear to just be messing with us (trolling), or when they display what we consider shocking intellectual dishonesty. Those things tend to set a lot of us
off.

Because people often put their prejudices against atheists (sometimes without realizing they're doing so) or condescending phrasing
into the same sentences with religious declarations, they confuse our hostile reaction to the open disrespect to be an attack upon their religion, which many religious people consider a major part of their personal identity.
So they react to the criticism of their methodology as a criticism of their faith itself, rather than the claims they/it are making, and thus an attack upon their personal identity... in other words, they react emotionally rather than
rationally. Don't worry, it's perfectly human-- lots of us do the same thing.

If you take a more cautious, critical look at what we've been saying to you, they are not personal
attacks of any sort, or even hostility toward you. We see the charlatans who have lied to you, tricked you, and exploited you as the persons toward whom we are directing our hostility, and at you we direct only frustration that you refuse
to see what is so plainly obvious to us (and would be to you, if you'd stop reacting defensively and truly READ what is being said to you). Our goals are really the same, here-- to suss out what the truth of the situation is.


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really are here trying to understand. Please go back and really read what Paleophyte wrote,
word for word, and truly consider whether that's more or less likely than magical powers.

Remember, we are all, in our way, trying to defend you against people whom we know are--
because several scientific, controlled tests and examinations of the claimed phenomena have shown them to be-- professional liars, tricksters, and exploiters.


Think of it like this: if you came in here telling us about the massive fortune you were about to get from a [url=https://www.bbb.org/new-york-city/get-consumer-help/articles/the-nigerian-
prince-old-scam-new-twist/]Nigerian Prince[/url], who just needed your $250 to access his money, and then send you a portion of that money worth millions... how would you expect us to react to your assertions? Try to picture
how you would react to someone telling you about their luck in finding the Nigerian Prince. Especially someone about whom you care deeply.


Then perhaps you will understand the way we are talking to you about psychics other peddlers of "woo". And
perhaps you will see that, however sharply worded, what we are saying is us trying to save you from a scam and from being hurt, emotionally or otherwise, by them.


[Second edit: Found some spelling/syntax errors.]
Thank you for your concern, and I really am trying to understand. It's just that I sincerely don't get your logic. It may make sense in your mind but it doesn't in mine. I guess that's just an area where we can agree to disagree.
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01-06-2017, 06:48 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(01-06-2017 06:35 AM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 07:41 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Believe me this is nothing, so far folks have
been pretty easy on you especially considering some of the specious things you've been saying.
But why are most atheists so mean? I mean, why can't they be friendly? Sure people may not always agree with them but that doesn't mean they should verbally tear them apart.

Read Rockets and Paleophytes posts also read my later posts you're being very selective about what you read and take in it seems to me Jennifer.
Take a look at the many posts on here and the time and effort people have gone to to try and help you avoid being conned out of $ 250 again.
This is a combative forum and if you post woo you will get pulled on it, this forum is not for everyone especially if you are of a sensitive nature.
Its generalisations like why are most atheists so mean that precipitates negative responses.
If I may speak plainly Jennifer you need to be a little more self aware about what you're saying. I for one have gone to an expert and spent time and effort to explain your psychic reading and ask him to help me explain it to you, I'm waiting for his response, does this sound like something a mean person would do ?
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01-06-2017, 06:49 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(31-05-2017 08:04 PM)adey67 Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 07:49 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Beagles make great pets. You gave them a good life and that's more than some do.

We got Darwin from a shelter. We don't know who his previous owner was but he was the sort
that makes me want to believe in reincarnation just so that SOB can spend the rest of time as the intestinal fauna of an incontinent Yak.

Protip: If you want a friendly discussion then
don't reply to the unfriendly responses. That and keep clear of religion until you know us better. There is a near limitless supply of more interesting topics.



On the topic of causes, the universe likely doesn't and can't have one.
- A cause is an event.

- Events require both space and time.
- Without the universe there is neither space nor time and thus no causes.



Asking what caused the universe is like asking what time it was before the Big Bang. The question makes no sense because our
language can't properly express the concepts.

This is good advice doglover, its simply asking for trouble to come to an atheist forum and
witter about psychics and burblings from the great beyond. You like dogs I do too, my doggie is my life I would be dead without her I'm sure. Start again, avoid controversial stuff get to know folks and generally settle in and I'm sure you
will find your niche here.
Then how do you get to talking about things that may be controversial but are still important nonetheless?
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01-06-2017, 06:57 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(31-05-2017 09:05 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'd like to echo the responses that saying "in an atheists's world [such and such]" is a flawed statement. Atheism just means a lack of belief in gods. That's it. And that hardly means anything anyway, since God is a pretty much meaningless term (as has been demonstrated in this thread).


I strongly suspect that most people are actually thinking about a super-humanoid when they talk about God, and at least dog here has admitted
that fact. Most people try very hard to make the description as abstract as possible, but eventually slip up by giving it all sorts of extremely human characteristics upon questioning.


My position is based on the fact that I can't be certain about anything, regarding reality. I don't preclude any possibilities. I don't make
statements like, "[such and such] is impossible/has to happen". If I do, I'm speaking informally in shorthand and don't actually mean it in such an extreme. So all I can do is create conditional, practical models of things to help
me live in [whatever this place is] efficiently, and to use effective models others have created.

The only time certainty is warranted, in my opinion, is within one's own abstract systems.
And then, all I am doing is providing a tautology. I'm providing the assumptions, which are true because I say they are; I'm providing the logic, and it works that way because I say it does; so my results are true within the abstract
system, so long as I haven't made any mistakes applying my own logic. Given that last part, a case could be made for refraining from being certain even about statements in abstract systems, where you're not simply stating that an
assumption is true because you say it is.

My god, what a load of drivel. I could talk for England if you keep me on the right subjects. No wonder my wife tunes me out.
Well I would be an athiest, only it would take imagination to create imagination wouldn't it?
And I know this is off topic but it seems like a few people here are from the U.K. I've been there for a swimming tournament before and I thought it was such an amazing place. Where do they get their tea from?
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01-06-2017, 06:59 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(31-05-2017 09:19 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(30-05-2017 04:49 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Yet I find it impossible for me to be an atheist when there's too much evidence for the existence of a God.


Coward. Big Grin

What evidence? The vast majority of your human compatriots? Did I mention, coward?
Laugh out load

I'm not entirely atheist myself, but unless you are ready to come to terms with the fact that the salvation of the human race depends upon your
acceptance of Gwyneth Paltrow as goddess of all, we fucked. Wink
I don't believe we need salvation, I believe God already loves us.
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01-06-2017, 07:01 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(01-06-2017 06:57 AM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 09:05 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'd like to echo the responses that saying "in an atheists's world [such and such]" is a flawed statement. Atheism just means a lack of belief in gods. That's it. And that hardly means anything anyway, since God is a pretty much meaningless term (as has been demonstrated in this thread).


I strongly suspect that most people are actually thinking about a super-humanoid when they talk about God, and at least dog here has admitted
that fact. Most people try very hard to make the description as abstract as possible, but eventually slip up by giving it all sorts of extremely human characteristics upon questioning.


My position is based on the fact that I can't be certain about anything, regarding reality. I don't preclude any possibilities. I don't make
statements like, "[such and such] is impossible/has to happen". If I do, I'm speaking informally in shorthand and don't actually mean it in such an extreme. So all I can do is create conditional, practical models of things to help
me live in [whatever this place is] efficiently, and to use effective models others have created.

The only time certainty is warranted, in my opinion, is within one's own abstract systems.
And then, all I am doing is providing a tautology. I'm providing the assumptions, which are true because I say they are; I'm providing the logic, and it works that way because I say it does; so my results are true within the abstract
system, so long as I haven't made any mistakes applying my own logic. Given that last part, a case could be made for refraining from being certain even about statements in abstract systems, where you're not simply stating that an
assumption is true because you say it is.

My god, what a load of drivel. I could talk for England if you keep me on the right subjects. No wonder my wife tunes me out.
Well I would be an athiest, only it would take imagination to create imagination wouldn't it?
And I know this is off topic but it seems like a few people here are from the U.K. I've been there for a swimming tournament before and I thought it was such an amazing place. Where do they get their tea from?

Mostly India, glad you like the UK I'm from Sussex in EnglandSmile
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01-06-2017, 07:02 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(31-05-2017 09:21 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  @Dog

You haven't addressed this directly: do you think any of the "real" psychics could pass the dice test? Could they produce a significant number of hits over the phone? Would they even try?


They may be able to produce a significant number of hits in person, if they are able to see your face and your reactions. That would, I bet,
be a get-out clause for any psychic that actually took on this challenge. (Check out Derren Brown on YouTube. He's an absolute master at this kind of thing. He debunks psychics and does all kinds of amazing tricks.)


I suspect most would be too wise to be caught in it at all, and would make excuses about how spirits don't give them that kind of information or
something. It doesn't give off the right aura. Any excuse to not have their claims properly tested. It's like when I ask people who have a "personal relationship with God" to tell me what number I'm thinking of. Suddenly God becomes all coy
and endless excuses are made.
I only believe a psychic would pass the dice test if the spirit that was with the psychic was interested in playing. But usually spirits are more interested in comforting the bereaved and then returning to Heaven.
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01-06-2017, 07:04 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(01-06-2017 01:00 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 05:48 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Well according to that definition of troll I am not one because my goal is not to upset people but to seek the truth.

I'm skeptical, given how obstreperous you are.
Am I noisy because I talk a lot?
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01-06-2017, 07:05 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(01-06-2017 07:02 AM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 09:21 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  @Dog

You haven't addressed this directly: do you think any of the "real" psychics could pass the dice test? Could they produce a significant number of hits over the phone? Would they even try?


They may be able to produce a significant number of hits in person, if they are able to see your face and your reactions. That would, I bet,
be a get-out clause for any psychic that actually took on this challenge. (Check out Derren Brown on YouTube. He's an absolute master at this kind of thing. He debunks psychics and does all kinds of amazing tricks.)


I suspect most would be too wise to be caught in it at all, and would make excuses about how spirits don't give them that kind of information or
something. It doesn't give off the right aura. Any excuse to not have their claims properly tested. It's like when I ask people who have a "personal relationship with God" to tell me what number I'm thinking of. Suddenly God becomes all coy
and endless excuses are made.
I only believe a psychic would pass the dice test if the spirit that was with the psychic was interested in playing. But usually spirits are more interested in comforting the bereaved and then returning to Heaven.

The spirit could use the game to show it's really them, and not someone making stuff up. I'd have thought that's important enough to spend a few minutes on, if I was a spirit.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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01-06-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(01-06-2017 01:05 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 06:02 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  That's what the psychics say

Yep, trolololol ... but not quite the comedian she (he?) would like to be.


Enjoy the ride, DL. I'm sure you'll get a thrill or two out of it.
I actually believe what the psychics say, just as you actually believe what other atheists say
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