I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
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30-05-2017, 06:25 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:06 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  I'd be glad to. One of the evidences is this: Something cannot come from nothing. Even the particles that seem to pop in and out of existence comes from already existing energy from the vaccum (because there's no such thing as a perfect vaccum) Everything around us is energy, even matter is energy. And although energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can become unusable energy (in the same way that a battery loses it's usefulness.) At this rate, one day all energy will become unusable, which means that the beginning of all things would have to be created by something eternal. And since nothing that exists is capable of being eternal, nothing should exist. Therefore God (But not the Christian God)

Atheist's don't claim "something from nothing" ...pretty sure that's a theist position; our answer is more along the lines of "we really don't know, but these are the prevailing theories." ...last I checked, "something from nothing" wasn't among any of them.

My scientific understanding isn't the greatest in the physics arena, but I do know batteries ...and battery energy doesn't become "unusable" since the goal of a fully charged battery is to reach a neutral state.

And as Thoreauvian said: Your last statement just defined your "god" out of existence too.
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30-05-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:20 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(30-05-2017 06:06 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  I'd be glad to. One of the evidences is this: Something cannot come from nothing.

Who claims that something did?

Quote:Even the particles that seem to pop in and out of existence comes from already existing energy from the vaccum (because there's no such thing as a perfect vaccum)

Actually, that's not how I understand it. Virtual particles do apparently come from nothing and, combined, have net zero energy so no laws are violated. The entire universe may have net zero energy which makes it the ultimate free lunch.

This lecture by Krauss is a bit dated but goes into a lot of it.

Quote:Everything around us is energy, even matter is energy. And although energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can become unusable energy (in the same way that a battery loses it's usefulness.) At this rate, one day all energy will become unusable,

OKay....

Quote:which means that the beginning of all things would have to be created by something eternal.

Not if something else non-eternal spawned out universe; not if the universe did actually come from nothing; not if the rules "outside" our universe are different than what we experience... I am not claiming any of those is true, just that we don't know how our universe came to be as we see it so we can't say anything about what characteristics are required.



Quote: And since nothing that exists is capable of being eternal, nothing should exist. Therefore God (But not the Christian God)

You can't have it both ways. If a god exists and is eternal then you have something that exists and is eternal which contradicts the premise. If
something "outside" our universe exists and caused it we have no way to detect any characteristics of that thing and that includes it being intelligent or not.



Basically, "god" is a label for something that can't be defined or detected but which carries the baggage of it being an intelligent agent. It's
more honest to simply say "I don't know" and leave it at that until we have more evidence.

Why do you say that particles "apparently " come in and out of existence? And the energy that you can't see is what I think you call dark energy
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30-05-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:25 PM)Grauwyler Wrote:  
(30-05-2017 06:06 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  I'd be glad to. One of the evidences is this: Something cannot come from nothing. Even the particles that seem to pop in and out of existence comes from already existing energy from the vaccum (because there's no such thing as a perfect vaccum) Everything around us is energy, even matter is energy. And although energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can
become unusable energy (in the same way that
a battery loses it's usefulness.) At this rate, one day all energy will become unusable, which means that the beginning of all things would have to be created by something eternal. And since nothing that exists is capable of being
eternal, nothing should exist. Therefore God (But not the Christian God)

Atheist's don't claim "something from nothing"
...pretty sure that's a theist position; our answer is more along the lines of "we really don't know, but these are the prevailing theories." ...last I checked, "something from nothing" wasn't among any of them.


My scientific understanding isn't the greatest in the physics arena, but I do know batteries ...and battery energy doesn't become "unusable"
since the goal of a fully charged battery is to reach a neutral state.

And as Thoreauvian said: Your last statement just defined your "god" out of existence too.

Energy becoming unusable is the second law of thermodynamics
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30-05-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:19 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Something has to be eternal or else nothing would exist.

Prove it. First show that time did not start at the big bang so that any notion of "before" is meaningless. Then show that there isn't a multiverse of some kind that IS eternal and has other laws of causality such that it can create energy out of nothing. Then show that the big bang wasn't just a phase transition from some earlier universe with different laws.

Quote:I meant if atheists are right then nothing is capable of being eternal.

Atheists do not accept the claim that a god exists. There is nothing about that that requires acceptance or rejection of any claims about anything being eternal. We simply don't paste a god label over our ignorance of how the universe we know came to exist.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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30-05-2017, 06:33 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:06 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  I'd be glad to. One of the evidences is this: Something cannot come from nothing. Even the particles that seem to pop in and out of existence comes from already existing energy from the vaccum (because there's no such thing as a perfect vaccum) Everything around us is energy, even matter is energy. And although energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can become unusable energy (in the same way that a battery loses it's usefulness.) At this rate, one day all energy will become unusable, which means that the beginning of all things would have to be created by something eternal. And since nothing that exists is capable of being eternal, nothing should exist. Therefore God (But not the Christian God)




"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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30-05-2017, 06:34 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:30 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(30-05-2017 06:19 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Something has to be eternal or else nothing would exist.

Prove it. First show that time did not start at the big bang so that any notion of "before" is
meaningless. Then show that there isn't a multiverse of some kind that IS eternal and has other laws of causality such that it can create energy out of nothing. Then show that the big bang wasn't just a phase transition from some
earlier universe with different laws.

Quote:I meant if atheists are right then nothing is capable of being eternal.


Atheists do not accept the claim that a god exists. There is nothing about that that requires acceptance or rejection of any claims about
anything being eternal. We simply don't paste a god label over our ignorance of how the universe we know came to exist.

Well everything has a cause. What caused the Big Bang?
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30-05-2017, 06:40 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:27 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Why do you say that particles "apparently " come in and out of existence?

Because (a) I am not a physicist so I may be misunderstanding something and (b) there may be something we can't yet detect that is the cause. As it stands now, they are created spontaneously from nothing.

Quote:And the energy that you can't see is what I think you call dark energy

No, I was not referencing dark energy at all.

The point in all this is that you are looking at causality as it affects us in our everyday lives within the universe we inhabit and trying to extend that beyond the universe. I do not see that you are justified in doing that. Things at the far end of the scales don't behave as we'd expect and we ave no reason to believe that anything "outside" the universe follows any of the same rules.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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30-05-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 05:08 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  How did she know so much about me then?

By what mechanism are you proposing she "knew" / "found out" about you ?
If she's so good, why didn't she buy Microsoft stock back in the 80's ?
If she were really psychic, she wouldn't need "clients".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-05-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:34 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Well everything has a cause. What caused the Big Bang?

Everything in our normal day-to-day experience has a cause. But the beginning of the universe, before there were physical laws, is under no obligation to follow those rules.

As to what started the Big Bang - which, it now seems likely, was not a beginning, but simply a state of existence some 13.7 +/- billion years ago - we simply don't know. Someone already mentioned Lawrence Krauss and his work, A Universe from Nothing, is worth a read. I won't pretend to understand it all but if you are sincerely interested in these questions I think it's a good place to start.

Alas, if you're more interested in pretending to know something you don't, well, then I can't help you.
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30-05-2017, 06:47 PM
RE: I'm not a Christian anymore, yet I'm not an Athiest
(30-05-2017 06:30 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Energy becoming unusable is the second law of thermodynamics

Yes, that is generally accepted within our universe. Show that it applies outside our universe. I'll wait.

(30-05-2017 06:34 PM)DogLover12347 Wrote:  Well everything has a cause. What caused the Big Bang?

In everyday life everything has a cause. I do not know if everything has a cause at the quantum level; current theories support the idea that causality does not always apply. Even if it turns out that that is wrong, you can't assume that the laws of causality within the universe apply to the universe itself. Finally, even we could show that the big bag was caused we have no way to assign any characteristics to whatever caused it. Calling it a god is, at best, premature. The best answer currently is "we don't know".

One of the biggest hurdles for many people is the idea that there are questions that we just do not have answers for. You have to get comfortable admitting ignorance and not pretend to have an answer by extrapolating from things you do understand into areas where the rules may just not apply.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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