I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
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17-03-2012, 03:13 PM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(17-03-2012 02:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  Yeah, I missed out on the great teachings of an amoral atheist.
Hmmm, actually you missed out on having a discussion about amorality with an amoralist.

(17-03-2012 02:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  I wrote a story about you at The Veridican.
Hmm, nice.
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17-03-2012, 03:21 PM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(17-03-2012 02:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  Yeah, I missed out on the great teachings of an amoral atheist. I wrote a story about you at The Veridican. (Just click the website button below.) There's no way to comment on it there, but I'll certainly entertain your comments about it here. And again, thanks for the story idea.

Egor you really do crack me up Smile

Narcissism - worship of the self... I can see how the statement comes across that way to you but really, all he's saying is that if there is no God then *by definition* there is no sin, so he is sinless. Because we are Godless heathens, it appeals to our sense of humour Big Grin
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17-03-2012, 05:11 PM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(17-03-2012 02:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  but I'll certainly entertain your comments about it here.
I've taken a look at your posting.

Your article does not offer any thought or reasoning, it does not offer any ideas about your stance. It is simply Egor standing up in a public place, exposing himself and hoping someone will take notice.

You have offered no food for thought, no ideas, just your own assertions.
I am quite disappointed in the article actually. It is not the type of material that one walks away from thinking about the ideas offered. It is not something that someone would link to.

I feel if you are open to discussing and exploring the idea of amorality then I feel both of us could gain value from having that discussion.
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18-03-2012, 02:48 AM
 
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(17-03-2012 05:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-03-2012 02:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  but I'll certainly entertain your comments about it here.
I've taken a look at your posting.

Your article does not offer any thought or reasoning, it does not offer any ideas about your stance. It is simply Egor standing up in a public place, exposing himself and hoping someone will take notice.

You have offered no food for thought, no ideas, just your own assertions.
I am quite disappointed in the article actually. It is not the type of material that one walks away from thinking about the ideas offered. It is not something that someone would link to.

Well, I wasn't shooting for the Pulitzer Prize.

Quote:I feel if you are open to discussing and exploring the idea of amorality then I feel both of us could gain value from having that discussion.

You're really going to do this? You're going to slam my article, and then solicit me to consider your opinions. Look, don't go away mad, just...go away.
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18-03-2012, 03:37 AM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(18-03-2012 02:48 AM)Egor Wrote:  Well, I wasn't shooting for the Pulitzer Prize.
You're really going to do this? You're going to slam my article, and then solicit me to consider your opinions. Look, don't go away mad, just...go away.
Oh my,

I was offering an honest critique, as you had asked of me. I was merely pointing out that your article was non substantiated assertions. I didn't expect a Pulitzer Prize worthy article, just something that offered some food for thought.

In deconstruction of your article:
- You assert "morality is based on authority" but you don't show any reasoning as to why morality is based on authority, you don't distinguish why the legal law enforced by the governing authority (government) isn't morality whereas you think your god's authority is morality.
- You assert "ultimate morality requires a being like God" but you don't explain which aspects of "like god" that you are referring to, you don't show why you think this is a necessary requirement of morality.
- You assert "it is utterly insane from a human perspective" but you don't explain why you think this way.
- You assert "What he describes is a sociopathic manifesto' but you don't explain why social behaviour requires a belief in morality and why that morality must come from a belief in a god like entity. You don't explain how atheists come to be underrepresented in American prisons even though they are "sociopathic".
- You assert "if it were the prevailing mindset of humanity would lead to humanity tearing itself apart" but you don't show anything to back up this assertion. You don't explain why studies show that predominantly secular and atheist countries have lower crime rates.

You just assert, assert, assert, but offer nothing for the reader to ponder, no supporting studies, no philosophical reasoning, simply nothing on offer other than hollow assertions.
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18-03-2012, 04:19 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2012 04:28 AM by JFReyes.)
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(17-03-2012 02:53 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  No. The Catholic Church is responsible for far more than what you say they are.

As I posted later, I meant the 2012 Catholic church where I live. Doesn't apply throughout history or anyplace else.
(17-03-2012 10:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(17-03-2012 10:08 AM)JFReyes Wrote:  Where did the singularity that started the Big Bang come from... ?

Good question.
I am sure will have an answer one day (ask Laurence Krauss, he seems to be on to it).
I take the atheist position on this because I see no evidence to prove a devine entity behind it all (infinite regress etc.).

Just bought the Kindle book and will check it out, thanks for the tip!

I take the deist position on this because my scientific mind tells me it's too awesome to have come from nothing, yet I don't think it happened like Genesis 1 says. Then again, what I don't know is orders of magnitude greater that what I do know...

José
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18-03-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(18-03-2012 04:19 AM)JFReyes Wrote:  I take the deist position ...

Yup, I kinda guessed.

(18-03-2012 04:19 AM)JFReyes Wrote:  ... what I don't know is orders of magnitude greater that what I do know...

Ah, yes, the wisdom of Socrates.

Well, I think there is not much between our views. We differ on merely (hehehe) the origin of the universe(s) but after that, I suspect we concur.

And therefore, we share the bewilderment (and often despair) at the theist position.

I took one step further to atheism when considering the improbability of the "infinite regress" and also the anthropological and fine-tuning arguments in that... we are here; the physical laws that allow us to be here are so fine tuned that effectively the "originator" had no choice in the matter... i.e. the model works equally well without an originator ... Occam's razor... why bother with god(s)?

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18-03-2012, 11:45 AM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
Quote:I take the deist position on this because my scientific mind tells me it's too awesome to have come from nothing, yet I don't think it happened like Genesis 1 says. Then again, what I don't know is orders of magnitude greater that what I do know...

I understand. Seeing how things work out, I see how tough it is to see the world as a coincidence. However, I'm starting to get away from that viewpoint, especially from reading my Biology textbook. Once you see the similarities human have with nature, and how we can explain much of the human existence (we still have plenty of work to do, for example in the nervous system) with science, it doesn't feel like humans are that "awesome" anymore. You can break everything about us into basic science. Our taste and smell are just detections of chemicals, while sight, hearing, and touch are also just responses to stimuli. We interpret these because of the flow of ions across the membranes. We think because of electrical charge. Once you see all the scientific evidence... it actually is quite beautiful, the connection we have with nature.

The theories we have on the beginning of the Earth are also pretty interesting, and make sense. I see natural selection working from the very beginning of life. Only the most able collections of molecules gradually evolved, and eventually, came the prokaryotes. Once these developed, you see the coming of sense mechanisms, then photosynthesis, then you continually evolve, generate eukaryotic cells, then multicellularity, then specialization, then awareness, and finally you get to us. The evidence... it's just too good, and we still have plenty to go.

Now, all of this Big Bang talk... I cannot speak for that. Evidence does suggest it happened, but I, and probably not anyone on this Earth, are qualified enough to pinpoint exactly what went on. The major problem with accepting this theory is that our normal interpretations of our world break down at those levels. When the size becomes that small, and the energy is so concentrated... our idea of Newtonian mechanics breaks down. You no longer have regular motion, you have quantum mechanics and beyond (I'm not exactly sure, really, I'm still in high school Tongue but you have to understand that there are certain things that we just cannot comprehend at the moment, and you have to accept that.) Gradually, we will refine the theory, possibly even come up with completely different theories, and we'll become closer than ever to explaining the world around us. I am much more inclined to believe something that will change to accommodate new evidence, instead of absolute faith that comes from people with nowhere near the technology or scientific insight we have today. The current ideas of science conflict with those beliefs, and I don't see solid, supportable evidence to support those claims.

Even if you see the science, and you don't completely believe it (although I wouldn't see why, because you have the most brilliant people alive working on these theories), I accept your position. I'd much rather have deists than to see Young Earth Creationists running around. If nothing else, take a look at the things people do for religion (you have thousands of religions, surely you can find something stupid somewhere, even if you won't in the Catholic faith around you), and then tell me how awesome we humans are. We definitely have plenty of flaws, and I highly doubt we were created by some external consciousness, although I can't say for sure. I'll believe that when evidence that legitimately supports it surfaces.

Also, welcome! I am fairly new too, but I have begun to visit and post things more often. Hopefully you continue to visit!

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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18-03-2012, 11:58 AM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(18-03-2012 04:19 AM)JFReyes Wrote:  I take the deist position on this because my scientific mind tells me it's too awesome to have come from nothing
A scientific mind doesn't jump to conclusions.

What is this deistic god made of?
How did it create something from nothing?
How can it think (in order to decide to make the universe) when it is made of nothing and time doesn't even exist hence there are no sequence of events?
How can it be intelligent when (before the universe) there is no energy/matter to observe hence no data, no information, no knowledge? How can anything be intelligent without information and knowledge?

Science has already explained quite a lot, from a few split seconds after the big bang right up until the present day (included how all the atoms of the periodic table got produced, how the earth formed and how life evolved). Some theories are extremely solid, some are a work in progress, but science has explained a lot, the gaps that this mythical god creature is hiding in get smaller ever day.

But my biggest question, if you are thinking with a scientific mind, why do assume to fill the gaps rather than recognise them simply as gaps?
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18-03-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: I'm not an atheist, but am fed up with the BS from organized religion...
(18-03-2012 11:45 AM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  
Quote:I take the deist position on this because my scientific mind tells me it's too awesome to have come from nothing, yet I don't think it happened like Genesis 1 says. Then again, what I don't know is orders of magnitude greater that what I do know...
When the size becomes that small, and the energy is so concentrated... our idea of Newtonian mechanics breaks down.

Newtonian breaks down on our level as well, not just the quantum level. It's just hard to notice unless you do work in space or something.

.. as far as the deist position. I agree, the more you know, the more you can see that you don't know. At least you know that much... or don't know.. or something... either way, Either way, why does one deity make more sense then a pantheon? Wouldn't that be more awesome? Hell, why limit it to human numbers, let's say there is an infinite number of deities that created the universe. Now it's infinitely more awesome. I prefer to think a ham sandwich was the reason for the universe (can't remember who I'm quoting), because that's just awesome as well. I can even imagine it. Well, I think I can, but if you understand enough of the current knowledge of the universe, it actually becomes immensely complex. I mean, did the ham sandwich have mustard or mayonnaise. We've got to know these things if we are going to truly understand the universe. How about we leave it at we don't know yet and continue to try to find the answers... preferably ones that we can actually find or that are testable. Otherwise, it may as well be a ham sandwich (don't even get me started on the bread).

Beyond the sandwich nonsense, deism is a fine position as long as you understand it's a god of the gaps position without expecting others to believe it.

Defy gravity... stand up. Drinking Beverage
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