I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
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14-07-2011, 10:40 AM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
*captain Obvious flies down and punches Katie out*

Yup, that's a swing and a miss right there... Well..at least we both agree that line was the most horrible

*watches Captain Obvious fly out the window and into the hot Okinawa night*

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14-07-2011, 01:45 PM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
(14-07-2011 10:10 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  Funny enough, I actually was a troop, came from a family of troops, and am married to a troop and I always hated that line.

You can disagree with war, in fact many troops do, without being considered unpatriotic. I totally hate the nearly slavish idolization of the military in the US, to me it's creepy. I also hate when fellow airmen post crap like that on their facebook, it boils my blood.

Of course when I tell people I feel about that, they say horrible things like "your unit must have hated you" or "Your family must hate you"... sheesh.

That is an actual bumper-sticker, seen in Canada (I misquoted a bit: it's really, "If you don't stand behind...", which scans better.) My reaction is: You want to push those brave young people out in front of unnecessary bullets that will settle nothing, while you're safe behind them. I want to bring them home to do useful work like flood-evacuation and guarding our coast. Who is more patriotic?

Hate- and fear-mongering have become very big business, indeed. Hard to resist; hard to discuss; hard, even to think about clearly.

BTW Why a troop ? That used to mean a body or unit of soldiers under a commanding officer, not a single individual. What's wrong with just soldier?

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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14-07-2011, 03:19 PM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
I used the term incorrectly, I did this on purpose (for realisies). The term troop can be used for people when saying something like, I'm an avionics troop (I am part of avionics flight). The term troop also can mean plural of mixed military, like you are not going to call a group of airman and sailors by one title or the other. So that's why people use troops.

We don't use it in the air force in an official way, but I'm not sure how the army uses it.

The correct term would be - "Military Members"

Besides, all the other branches except army, would sooner immigrate to Iraq before calling themselves 'soldiers'

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15-07-2011, 11:04 AM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
I see. In fact, once i'd thought a bit about it, i kind of guessed it was an inclusive term of convenience, though more on the lines of gender-neutrality. So long as it works for the people it applies to.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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15-07-2011, 04:24 PM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
(14-07-2011 02:59 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  1. Response...

The reasoning why atheists get upset or annoyed with agnostic people (this is generalities). They assume atheists are hard headed, inflexible, know it alls, the almost always go with the gnostic atheist suggestion, and never really understand that most atheists themselves are agnostic. Now this may not be you but this is what
I've seen in MOST cases for agnostics, but they themselves are arrogant for thinking that they are right, and everyone else is simply closed minded.

Also a lot of people seem to think that agnostics are more reasonable, kinder, then atheists, which again, is annoying because many agnostics would actually fit into being called agnostic atheists, but simply choose to not label themselves as such.

Most agnostics have reasons similar to yours, for not wanting to add atheist to the title, the name has a bad rep/bad people and they don't want to be included in it. This is almost hurtful, they assume incorrectly about atheists, but in actuality share the same beliefs, and then put them down in the same breath.

In the end, as many posters mentioned, it's all almost semantics and euphemisms.

I'm an agnostic atheist, I have almost all of the same ideas as 'agnostics', There really isn't evidence for god, so I make the logical decision to assume there isn't one. I don't claim to be sure, as anything in nature is possible, and you really can't prove/disprove something like that. So in other words, you could say I don't know whether or not there is a god, I live my life like I don't know the answer. However for simplicity's sake I say I don't believe in god, rather then typing an entire paragraph each time.

Like with everything, it's not all black and white, and I'm sure there is a scale of how far you are to not believing to believing in the possibility of a god.

So to sum it all up, I feel upset at agnostics sometimes when they put down or refuse to be associated with atheists/atheism, it feels like a slap to the face when we all almost have the same ideas anyways. I'm sure there are many reasons agnostics don't consider themselves atheists as well, but many of the times it feels like the only reason they don't is because they don't understand most atheists thoughts, or they just think it's a bad word to be associated with.

That's just how I feel about agnostic in generally, not everyone is the same, but it's how I came to my conclusions in the first place.

Please don't take it as an insult or anything at you, it's just how I feel about 'agnostic'.

In the end, it's all just words.


G,day Monkeyshine.
The whole issue is sort of addictive isn't it? So many issues and so many ways to look at it. I have had to do a lot of soul searching and still a bit in
limbo.
My main issue is with the notion of a perfect god. "Perfect" in relation to what?
Even in a cosmic sceenario ,much better spiritual beings in reaching "perfection"
would come,, by definition, to a dead end and if they still had fun things to do they would know they were involved in a bizarre cosmic computer game with god simply pressing the buttons' so I cant accept god,at least as defined by Christians.
As for an ever evolving ,self engaging,cosmic and spiritual force for the good my position is agnostic...you might say I am hardline on god but softer line on possible supernatural phenomena, particularly Buddhism.
Must go, lap top low~~~~~~~Cheers Mr WoofUndecided
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15-07-2011, 08:21 PM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
Part of the fuzziness in this discussion is due to the lack of definition. Agnosticism is merited when we are discussing the god of deism, and I am comfortable saying "I don't know" when I discuss that possibility. I think we are all shooting past each other due to differing definitions.

But the vast majority of the theist world is not claiming belief in the deist god, the watchmaker that forgot his creation. Instead most of them believe in the God of Abraham that directly intervenes directly in the lives of the believer. The God of the Bible and Qur'an can be shown to be a logical impossibility. I would argue that the Problem of Evil alone proves this.

I can't say for sure about what you may believe in, but I am absolutely convinced that the God I grew up believing in (the God defined by a literal interpretation of the King James Version of the Bible) does not exist.

I get annoyed when a Christian Fundamentalist hears one of us say we are agnostic, because they see our uncertainty as meaning their nonsense has merit. I know this is true because I have heard fundy family members and acquaintances say so.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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15-07-2011, 09:48 PM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
Hey, Nontheocrat.

Quote:I can't say for sure about what you may believe in, but I am absolutely convinced that the God I grew up believing in (the God defined by a literal interpretation of the King James Version of the Bible) does not exist.

I'm not being critical of you personally, but I want to use this statement as a springboard to expand my own position.

I have issue with this statement for two reasons.

First, as an Agnostic, I recognise that there is zero proof for or against the Abrahamic God. So I could never personally feel convinced that he doesn't exist, or that he does exist for that matter.

I hear people frequently say that they are Agnostic about some things. Agnosticism is not a weekend retreat, it's a way of life. You don't get to cherry pick what you want to be Agnostic about. Being an Agnostic means you will not pretend to know something that has not been demonstrated or that is indemonstrable. It doesn't mean that you're Agnostic about things you have to be Agnostic about but not about things you arbitrarilly decide are silly or outmoded. You simply can't be Agnostic about some things and not about others. It's not a case by case position, it's an all encompassing world view.

The other reason I have issue with this is because the fact that holy books like the Qu'ran, the Bible and the Torah might make demonstrably false claims and may even be utterly debunkable does not mean that the God they make an account of does not exist. A phenomenon is not its account, it's a phenomenon. For example, Whoopie Goldberg is a male Aryan Jew accountant with red hair and freckles. My account is garbage, but Whoopie Goldberg exists outside of it. It would be ludicrous for me to say that because my account is full of holes that Whoopie Goldberg does not exist.

I can't take the debunking of the Bible as evidence of the non-existence of God any more than I can take David Blaine's levitation trick as evidence of the non-existence of gravity.

For me, being an Agnostic means admitting we don't know when we don't know instead of pretending anything else. When someone says they don't actually know if there's no God but thinks there isn't, they're not Agnostic. It reminds me of what Malik tells Remy in Higher Learning:
Quote:Remy is it? Man, I gotta admit you've been really polite by staying out of my way. But you ain't been honest. See I figure, it's not what a person says it's what they think. So in my mind, you've been walking around here calling me a nigger in you head. Am I right?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-07-2011, 11:32 PM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
We should all know by now that Ghost is an agnostic troll who comes here demanding to argue with atheists on the proof of agnosticism =p

I dislike the term unknowable because things are constantly becoming knowable. When you discuss something as not possibly having an answer that closes off the possibility (removing your neutral stance). It also is a real way to breed fear in the idea that something can effect you that you will never comprehend.

Since it's been a while since the last one of these I'll restate that my position on this whole thing is a personal one. "God" is an existence above all else that is worshiped. That's my loose definition which covers pretty much every god without being "the unknown". I've never felt there is any reason to classify things as superior first of all, so the basic of idea of being above all things for me is indefensible. I also have never felt any reason to worship something specific, (though I jokingly worship cat) even in enjoying the universe I can appreciate each part without needing to lump them all into one collective thing. My atheism is defined in a rather open sense in that there is no possibility of there being anything that would exist which I will define as "god". I'm still perfectly willing to discuss what others view on the subject, but I'm always going to be discussing something of theirs not mine.

The truth of this constant debate is that no label is going to describe a person, and there will always be confusion. I spend a lot of time working on labels helping people to have a substantial view of this or that, because even if we think a label helps define us it in fact helps stigmatize us generally. Labels are easier to criticize than people, and in taking a label you assume everything that is disliked about that label. Every label has a lot of stigma, but the truth is humans like to work within labels because they want to express themselves without talking to each person for years about it. Labels will always be used, and never be adequate.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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16-07-2011, 07:15 AM
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
Hey, Lilith.

Why would you say something like that?
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16-07-2011, 08:22 AM
 
RE: I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic...
I disagree, there is plenty of proof against the Abrahamic god. The proposed traits that he is said to possess conflict with the actions he is described as perpetrating in the Bible, and accounts of ridiculous events such as the tower of Babel and Noah's Flood are not historically accurate. When you get into fairly specific gods, when it becomes more than a vague notion of a superior intelligence existing somewhere out in the cosmos, there is reason to say "I'm pretty sure this is bullshit."
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