I'm really getting pissed off
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02-06-2012, 06:20 AM
I'm really getting pissed off
I'm really starting to get pissed off in regards to religion. Short story. I was raised roman catholic, and was very devout. Even thought of being a priest. Around 8th grade I started to waiver, and had doubts. I started to attend an Episcopal church and still struggled until I read The Age of Reason, and considered myself a Deist, and now I have moved toward a non-believer. This is where I am now.

I am pissed because of the ignorance of people in religion. I try to do good in my community because it's right to help the suffering of others, but I see religious people do it, but with a catch; you have to believe as they do or they won't help. I see a faith based religious group that came to to our town annually get chased away by church goers! I helped this group out because of the work they did, not of their personal beliefs, but the churches put their faith based beliefs ahead of the works.

I see people in faith protest against non-believers, people who practice Yoga, and other things as devil worshippers, referring to homosexuals as faggots and undermining their happiness.

I hate people telling my son that the earth is 6 thousand years old, with a straight face, ignoring piles of scientific evidence and fact.

I am now practicing what THEY preach. I love the religious people in my life, but hate the religion that poisions their soul.

Where do I go from here? I'm still a closet Atheist, as I live in a religious community.

Why are you still reading this line when it is obviously my signature line?
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02-06-2012, 06:41 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
Start teaching your kid the truth early. I mean actually having heavy discussions about religion and why people believe this stuff. My daughter is 8 and her grandmother is obsessed with trying to make her religious. "They" DID NOT get to my daughter when she was young and now never will. She was born a free thinker and I made sure she stayed that way. Your kid looks up to you for their world view more then you may know. Just give them the correct one.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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02-06-2012, 06:47 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
(02-06-2012 06:41 AM)Thomas Wrote:  Start teaching your kid the truth early. I mean actually having heavy discussions about religion and why people believe this stuff. My daughter is 8 and her grandmother is obsessed with trying to make her religious. "They" DID NOT get to my daughter when she was young and now never will. She was born a free thinker and I made sure she stayed that way. Your kid looks up to you for their world view more then you may know. Just give them the correct one.
How do I approach it with him. My wife is somewhat religious; I believe out of rear of dying. She mentions waking up at night thinking about death being eternal blackness and she freaks out, which makes me think she doesn't truly believe. I don't want to tell her the bible stories are lies, but wan him to be armed with the shield of logic and reason..

He's 5 BTW.

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02-06-2012, 07:04 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
(02-06-2012 06:47 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  
(02-06-2012 06:41 AM)Thomas Wrote:  Start teaching your kid the truth early. I mean actually having heavy discussions about religion and why people believe this stuff. My daughter is 8 and her grandmother is obsessed with trying to make her religious. "They" DID NOT get to my daughter when she was young and now never will. She was born a free thinker and I made sure she stayed that way. Your kid looks up to you for their world view more then you may know. Just give them the correct one.
How do I approach it with him. My wife is somewhat religious; I believe out of rear of dying. She mentions waking up at night thinking about death being eternal blackness and she freaks out, which makes me think she doesn't truly believe. I don't want to tell her the bible stories are lies, but wan him to be armed with the shield of logic and reason..

He's 5 BTW.

I started with my daughter around that same age. I approached it through biology. She is advanced in reading so it made it easier. My first step was to teach her how we are evolved and are basically animals. She loves animals and took to that easily. When she "got it" that humans are evolved I believe it was over for religious teachings.
This was not without some pain. My wife as well was Christian in her beliefs. One day she just went off on me in the car when I was talking to the kid about religions beliefs. We had one of those memorable fights. Later I came to realize that this was her venting on me what she did not want to accept, but knew was true. She does not attend church today and is agnostic.
No doubt there will be painful situations with your family, but the alternative is to allow your child to be taught unfounded superstitious beliefs only later to struggle with it. We all have to chart our own paths. Good luck.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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02-06-2012, 07:06 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
Son, have a seat because I am about to pile on some profound shit right now.
Brace yourself, you have been warned.

Your kid is 5. 5. Allow me to repeat that just once more so you get what I am saying, 5.

Allow me to fill in a space of this post with pictures of things 5 year olds are concerned with/care about:

[Image: Transformers-transformers-627087_1600_1200.jpg] [Image: Small%20Octagonal%20Sand%20Pit%20cut%20o...%20res.jpg] (That is a sandpit, not a litter box)
[Image: Lego_Color_Bricks.jpg] [Image: mattel-hot-wheels-10-car-pack.jpg]



Get my point.

There is a reason why even Atheist parents teach their children about Santa Claus, because they know they'll grow out of it.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Now with 40% more awesome.
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02-06-2012, 07:11 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
They are building their world view piece by piece. They pick up more than you think and sooner than you think.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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02-06-2012, 08:21 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2012 08:27 AM by Debzilla.)
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
FaceOfBoe
Sorry in advance if this sounds preachy in any way. I do not know you or your situation beyond what you have shared, and this may or may not help/apply.
I'd begin by breaking down your situation down into manageable parts

1. Raising a freethinking son in a religious community
Arm him with freethinking and skeptical understandings of science and world:
  • The books, toys, museums, vacations, movies that you share with him can teach more about rational thought than you can imagine. It will also bond you both. Let him know he can come to you with his questions. Guide your family to secular activities. Example: plan a bike tour, road trip, kayak or camping trip on a Sunday morning. Your wife may like it too! (stay away from boy scouts Smile ).
  • Teach him how to question without insulting others. We live in a religious world - to maintain relationships we have to be skilled at respecting other's belief choices. From an early age I told my kids "distrust anyone who claims they understand everything; it is most likely a con." I also told them not to challenge their friend's religious views.
    Teach him about all religions, not just judeochristian.
  • If your spouse insists that your son go to church, find one that you can tolerate. Find a group that looks to the bible as allegory written by men and not fact handed down from a God. If there is a spectrum with cults and Westburo Baptists on one end, and progressives/new age folks on the other, I'd say settle for the least evil!
2. Losing religion but married to a religious spouse
There are so many nuances to this one - it really depends on your spouse and your marriage.
  • How religious is she? How skeptical?
  • How much does it matter to her how religious you are?
  • How healthy is your marriage outside of the religious question?
  • How well do you both communicate?
If you can be open with her, honesty is always best.
I also think making an effort for quality family time that doesnt involve church and religion is a great way to keep the two of you close regardless of your religiosity. Dont forget date nights! Once a week ideal, once a month at least. If the only "family time" you have is church related and you stop that, what is left?

3. Being non-religious in a religious community
Again, lots of variables that affect possible solutions:
  • How big/small is your city?
  • How much secular activities can you find? (Science museums, children's science museums, outdoor activities, etc)
  • If you are in a very small town with few options, could you move?
  • What are the social consequences if you come out?

Anyway, that is my Saturday morning rant. Some of this may be helpful, all of it may be useless. I do hope you are able to find some solutions, even if you cant live the ideal (such as raising your family in Austin Tongue ).
Have a great weekend!
Debzilla

Your beliefs do not make you a better person, your behavior does.
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02-06-2012, 08:53 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
Gotta partially disagree wiv ya there, earmuffs, m'old chum. Some kids, sure, Lego etc. but many are already becoming self-aware and thinking about existence / death etc. especially if they have experienced grief (or more likely, other people's grief).
The "why...", "because...", "why...", "because...", "why...", "because...", "why...", "because... IT JUST IS!" conversations are the give-away.

And Thomas is right to say...
(02-06-2012 07:11 AM)Thomas Wrote:  They are building their world view piece by piece. They pick up more than you think and sooner than you think.
FaceofBoe,
Try some bedtime stories about Greek / Roman / Norse / Jewish myths and why people used to believe they were true.
Just a thought.

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02-06-2012, 09:05 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2012 09:08 AM by LadyJane.)
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
Face of boe! Welcome back!

I grew up in a devot catholic home. My siblings and I all turned out to be skeptic (don't know if all my siblings would say atheist, but they'd be the closest to it). Where the indoctrination failed was that we were raised to always ask questions.

I do the same thing with my children. Don't tell them how the universe works, show them and let them discover and question their conclusions. Why? is my most favourite question. Why is the sky blue, why did the egyptians have mummies, why do things have taste, etc. then we google, go to the library or talk to a professional. The tough questions come too. I also find it important to show proof for their conclusions they come up with.

After enough questions truth is more clear, like the fact that the church group in your town is a socially dynamic bully and how primal their behavior really is.

That's my two cents Smile
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02-06-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: I'm really getting pissed off
(02-06-2012 06:20 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  I try to do good in my community because it's right to help the suffering of others, but I see religious people do it, but with a catch; you have to believe as they do or they won't help. I see a faith based religious group that came to to our town annually get chased away by church goers! I helped this group out because of the work they did, not of their personal beliefs, but the churches put their faith based beliefs ahead of the works.

There you go! You describe the essence of elitism, of fascism!

Which explains neatly how fundie Xtians basically are fascists.
Like all fascists they have a bullshit story. The Nazis had the Aryan master race. The commies had the worker's paradise. Etc.
Xtians have the bible.
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