I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
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09-11-2017, 02:28 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(03-11-2017 10:10 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I'd say the vast proportion of significant art that came out of religion was in spite of, rather than because of religion.

What makes you think so?
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09-11-2017, 02:54 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(03-11-2017 08:49 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  While I'm not a religious fan by any means and do wish it would all go away. I do have a soft spot for the art, architecture, music, poetry, etc, that religion has inspired.

I wouldn't mind some of the gorgeous Catholic churches and basilicas became public meeting spaces where people are free to share and exchange ideas without the religious claptrap. Or just fill them full of art and make them museums.
Bowing

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Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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09-11-2017, 03:14 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 02:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 08:49 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  While I'm not a religious fan by any means and do wish it would all go away. I do have a soft spot for the art, architecture, music, poetry, etc, that religion has inspired.

I wouldn't mind some of the gorgeous Catholic churches and basilicas became public meeting spaces where people are free to share and exchange ideas without the religious claptrap. Or just fill them full of art and make them museums.
Bowing

[Image: hagia-sophia-istanbul-turkey.jpg]

The danger here is that it's too easy to reduce these great works to a deracinated series of "styles."

If you don't see what's good in Neoplatonic Christian theology, then you're only getting a fraction of what's good in Michelangelo. His work becomes a shallow exercise in visual pleasure, rather than the passionate and demanding call that he intended.

These places aren't meant to be just tourist stops, and if we don't take the time to respect and admire all the careful thought and theory that went into their making, we cut off nearly all that's good about them.
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09-11-2017, 03:40 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  The danger here is that it's too easy to reduce these great works to a deracinated series of "styles."

If you don't see what's good in Neoplatonic Christian theology, then you're only getting a fraction of what's good in Michelangelo. His work becomes a shallow exercise in visual pleasure, rather than the passionate and demanding call that he intended.

These places aren't meant to be just tourist stops, and if we don't take the time to respect and admire all the careful thought and theory that went into their making, we cut off nearly all that's good about them.

I attended a private art college, and even I think you sound pretentious as fuck.

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09-11-2017, 04:25 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  If you don't see what's good in Neoplatonic Christian theology, then you're only getting a fraction of what's good in Michelangelo.
Christian theology is bullshit. It all revolves around...nothing. Are you trying to say that Michelangelo would have been able to pull of something even more awesome and beautiful if he was engaged in something secular and real instead of adhering to a morbid fantasy?

(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  These places aren't meant to be just tourist stops,
Straw man. Who said that? Do you know the intentions of each tourist?
No, you know shit.
When i went to the cathedral in Palermo and stood next to the sarkophagi of german Emperors Henry VI and Frederick II, i did this not to admire the craftsmanship of some stone mason working on Porphyry. I got myself informed about the heritage of those rulers, before and after i visited Sicily.
That doesnt mean i (have to) agree with the concept of monarchy.
[Image: Palermo-sarcofago_di_federico_II.jpg]

When i visited the Alcazar in Sevilla i admired the effort put into this wonderful royal garden. I try to understand what were people thinking while doing this, how they were motivated. That doesnt mean i subscribe to islam and its spreading with the sword.
[Image: Sevilla_Alcazar_03.jpg]


(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  and if we don't take the time to respect and admire all the careful thought and theory that went into their making, we cut off nearly all that's good about them.
Everywhere i go i respect the effort made and dedication by man to create incredible works of art. I dont have to respect the (often silly) intentions.

Much as i respect anyones right to have a silly belief doesnt mean i have to respect the silly belief itself.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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09-11-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 04:25 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  If you don't see what's good in Neoplatonic Christian theology, then you're only getting a fraction of what's good in Michelangelo.
Christian theology is bullshit. It all revolves around...nothing. Are you trying to say that Michelangelo would have been able to pull of something even more awesome and beautiful if he was engaged in something secular and real instead of adhering to a morbid fantasy?

(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  These places aren't meant to be just tourist stops,
Straw man. Who said that? Do you know the intentions of each tourist?
No, you know shit.
When i went to the cathedral in Palermo and stood next to the sarkophagi of german Emperors Henry VI and Frederick II, i did this not to admire the craftsmanship of some stone mason working on Porphyry. I got myself informed about the heritage of those rulers, before and after i visited Sicily.
That doesnt mean i (have to) agree with the concept of monarchy.
[Image: Palermo-sarcofago_di_federico_II.jpg]

When i visited the Alcazar in Sevilla i admired the effort put into this wonderful royal garden. I try to understand what were people thinking while doing this, how they were motivated. That doesnt mean i subscribe to islam and its spreading with the sword.
[Image: Sevilla_Alcazar_03.jpg]


(09-11-2017 03:14 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  and if we don't take the time to respect and admire all the careful thought and theory that went into their making, we cut off nearly all that's good about them.
Everywhere i go i respect the effort made and dedication by man to create incredible works of art. I dont have to respect the (often silly) intentions.

Much as i respect anyones right to have a silly belief doesnt mean i have to respect the silly belief itself.

Those artists worked all their lives to express certain ideas, very often religious ones. If you hold their ideas in contempt, but admire the way the things look, then you are not seeing what the art is all about.

Form and content are not independent of one another. There is no need to share their beliefs; only to respect them enough to take the artists seriously.
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09-11-2017, 05:52 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 04:41 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  There is no need to share their beliefs; only to respect them enough to take the artists seriously
Didnt i just say in my previous post that i respect what they did, yet reserve the right to not subscribe to the "why"?
Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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09-11-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 04:41 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 04:25 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Christian theology is bullshit. It all revolves around...nothing. Are you trying to say that Michelangelo would have been able to pull of something even more awesome and beautiful if he was engaged in something secular and real instead of adhering to a morbid fantasy?

Straw man. Who said that? Do you know the intentions of each tourist?
No, you know shit.
When i went to the cathedral in Palermo and stood next to the sarkophagi of german Emperors Henry VI and Frederick II, i did this not to admire the craftsmanship of some stone mason working on Porphyry. I got myself informed about the heritage of those rulers, before and after i visited Sicily.
That doesnt mean i (have to) agree with the concept of monarchy.
[Image: Palermo-sarcofago_di_federico_II.jpg]

When i visited the Alcazar in Sevilla i admired the effort put into this wonderful royal garden. I try to understand what were people thinking while doing this, how they were motivated. That doesnt mean i subscribe to islam and its spreading with the sword.
[Image: Sevilla_Alcazar_03.jpg]


Everywhere i go i respect the effort made and dedication by man to create incredible works of art. I dont have to respect the (often silly) intentions.

Much as i respect anyones right to have a silly belief doesnt mean i have to respect the silly belief itself.

Those artists worked all their lives to express certain ideas, very often religious ones. If you hold their ideas in contempt, but admire the way the things look, then you are not seeing what the art is all about.

Form and content are not independent of one another. There is no need to share their beliefs; only to respect them enough to take the artists seriously.

Are you actually so pretentious that you are dictating how people should experience art?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-11-2017, 06:32 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(09-11-2017 05:56 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 04:41 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  Those artists worked all their lives to express certain ideas, very often religious ones. If you hold their ideas in contempt, but admire the way the things look, then you are not seeing what the art is all about.

Form and content are not independent of one another. There is no need to share their beliefs; only to respect them enough to take the artists seriously.

Are you actually so pretentious that you are dictating how people should experience art?

Deese is saying that the thinking, motivations, and goals of nearly every great artist in the West are bullshit.

In my opinion it is pretentious of her to say so.

If you want to reduce all religious art to its surface level, and admire the pretty colors, I won't stop you. I will say that you are eliminating most of the thought and feeling that goes into it, which it was intended to induce and celebrate.

It reduces the different eras and styles to different pages in a shopping catalog. Some people like Persian Muslim art, and some people like French Gothic, but, hey, it's all pretty, and you can go to different rooms on different days.

Bruegel, to take an example more or less at random, is so deeply soaked in the theology of his time that to ignore it, or to call it bullshit, would be the same as calling him a fool who happened to draw well. I have more respect for him than that. And though I don't share his beliefs, it would be arrogant of me to call him a fool. He was a better man than I.

Removing the history of these wonderful things and treating them as decoration is a symptom of a history-less, uneducated culture. It's truthiness.
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09-11-2017, 06:36 AM
RE: I make no apology for holding religion in contempt.
(02-11-2017 03:22 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I know this is a mild mannered website where the hope theists will eventually find reason attractive is paramount.

Fools.

Sadly, I do not share this, to my mind, naive and forlorn hope.

Indeed, when recently I saw a theist offering apologetics, and called the theist out, I was attacked. By the administrator!

These days I fear I have lost hope. Humanity is too stupid to exist. One may consider the animal undeserving.

I do not know how long I intend to remain on this planet. Suicide becomes more attractive daily. I am not looking for condolence. I no longer care.

Atheists have been murdered for thousands of years. Persecuted over a longer age than the Jews. This fact is, I feel, often under appreciated.

Why should I be patient with this? Unlike many here, I have been an atheist my entire life. I was never a theist. Perhaps this is something that cannot be felt by those who were so easily fooled in the past?

I have no answer. I cannot relate to these individuals. I do not respect them.

I make no apology for this.

I am glad they finally grew up.

Now I look at myself. I believe I am arrogant. I see all my faults. None escape me. And this makes life and living incredibly difficult. I find I am alone. Always. Indeed, since 8 years old.

This is how it is and must be. How long I endure this is unknown, and I am losing patience fast. Both with myself and everything else.

Religion, to me, is the ultimate danger to our existence. Especially the death cults of xianity and islam. Ideas that place a greater importance on death than life.

How am I to be patient with this danger? To roll over and surrender to this idiocy would be cowardice. And I am no coward.

I am however very tired.

If anyone thinks I am too harsh with religious delusion, screw you.

I am going to call it out whenever I see it.

If you want to silence me, ban me.

This post is no cry for help. Screw that. Call me any name you want. I no longer care.

I make no apologies to blaspheming religion myself.

I never use the world "respect", on any issue, not just religion.

"Respect" unfortunately most of the time is intended to day, "Don't bruise my ego." or "Know your place."

I say "value" in it's place. I value claims that have evidence that back them up. I will never value naked assertions.

Having said that, and while it is right to challenge the claims of religions, ALL RELIGIONS WORLDWIDE, I also value human rights.

You can value human rights without liking everything an individual might claim.

I have put it like this many times.

I can value the empathy of Martin Luther King Jr, but not value his claim that the Christian God exists. I can value the empathy of Ann Frank, but not value the claim the Jewish God Yahweh is the one true God. I can value the likes of Malala as well, but not value the claim that Allah is the one true God.

I will always value my species POTENTIAL to do good and be good. I merely disagree with the pointing to clubs of any label as being the magical source of our species morality.

We can be skeptics and should be, but all 7 billion humans are still the same species. Even with atheists we don't always agree.

I do not value the claims of atheists who think Che, the opportunist who lead to Castro's Cuba. I don't value the claims of other atheists who value Ayn Rand's "fuck you I got mine" economics.

I will always value human rights, even the rights of those who make claims that make me want to pull my hair out. I can value the good in an individual without valuing every claim that person might make.

Our species morality isn't in a religious, political, or economic label, not even the word "atheist" will automatically make the individual only do good.

No, I am not advocating to never blaspheme or criticize religion, WE SHOULD DO THAT. I am saying, in the process of challenging social norms, humans should not lose their empathy even if the other is driving them nuts.

Claims do not deserve blind value never to be questioned. But on a planet of 7 billion you will never have a utopia where 1 size fits all.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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