I may not be back for some time
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12-05-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: I may not be back for some time
(12-05-2017 07:21 AM)morondog Wrote:  Cheers Aractus.

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For all that I don't think we're that unwelcoming either. Everyone can express their view. We don't suppress people's opinions. People who hold unpopular positions get a fair amount of stick but that's just it - if 99 people out of 100 disagree with you over X, then you're gonna get 99 negative replies. It doesn't mean you can't hold your unpopular opinion, but you mustn't be surprised if you get a bit piled on. Also people who are well liked quickly become part of our community. About the only way you remain an outsider is if a. you're a dick (which I don't think you are) or b. you don't post very often and nobody really knows you.

And of course we all take pride in our much vaunted ability to change our minds "on presentation of sufficient evidence". Mind you, I've rarely seen it happen in myself or others, but it does happen.

We'll leave a light on for you.

Yes, ^^^^This^^ - what Modog said.

I too, think you are interesting and have interesting views. If I do not agree with those views, I will let you know this, in some way - appropriately and yes, possibly sometimes, inappropriately. Dodgy

So, you like the idea that Jesus was A specific guy who did specific things at a specific time. As well, I find it interesting that you have it all worked out. In the end, I'm only tempted to say ... it was two thousand years ago and I never believed in any of this stuff anyway. The minutiae of fiction is the pedantry of soap opera addicts.

There are times when we simply have to shake our heads and walk away from the grassy golgotha overlooking the crime of which we're certain ... and let it all continue without us. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-05-2017, 10:29 AM
RE: I may not be back for some time
Personally, I want you to stay on THIS forum because I think you're a good person and I, for the most part, enjoy your posts. I think it would be a shame to see any I value as a good member go.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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12-05-2017, 10:40 AM
RE: I may not be back for some time
(12-05-2017 10:23 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  How about no. You are trying to slander an entire group of people and blame them for the failure of a discussion that YOU were dishonest and evasive in.

I'm TRYING to point out that no matter what community you join if you continue to debate that way you are going to get pushback.

You come into this thread and insult me. You've called me dishonest and evasive, both of which I reject outright. Calling me evasive is a nothing but a thinly-veiled tactic to entrap me into further discussion.

And then you claim I can't discuss things that I want to discuss, and that I don't belong anywhere.

What part of that is constructive? I'm not blaming anyone - I'm happy to take responsibility for my part in it. Where in this thread did I start laying blame on people?

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12-05-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: I may not be back for some time
To reiterate what julep already said, as long as this thread is in the PI&S let’s treat it as such. You want to comment in less than a supportive fashion take it outside this area. Thanks.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-05-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: I may not be back for some time
(12-05-2017 10:23 AM)kim Wrote:  So, you like the idea that Jesus was A specific guy who did specific things at a specific time. As well, I find it interesting that you have it all worked out. In the end, I'm only tempted to say ... it was two thousand years ago and I never believed in any of this stuff anyway. The minutiae of fiction is the pedantry of soap opera addicts.

Well, I don't "like" any ideas really. The thing that I like is that advancement is made through the falsification of ideas, hypotheses and theories. That doesn't worry me at all and I welcome it.

I love the example of Herodotus and the pyramids, and I use it all the time. So many people don't know that the Egyptian pyramids were not built by slaves, and are surprised when I tell them, but they all welcome the information. I was taught in primary school that the Egyptian pyramids were built by slaves, and I think all kids love ancient Egyptian history as much as dinosaurs. But that knowledge has moved on, it's been falsified by newer information. No one presented with that information says "I think I'll still believe that slaves built the pyramids".

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12-05-2017, 12:39 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 12:47 PM by kim.)
RE: I may not be back for some time
(12-05-2017 10:58 AM)Aractus Wrote:  
(12-05-2017 10:23 AM)kim Wrote:  --- The minutiae of fiction is the pedantry of soap opera addicts.

Well, I don't "like" any ideas really. The thing that I like is that advancement is made through the falsification of ideas, hypotheses and theories. That doesn't worry me at all and I welcome it.

I love the example of Herodotus and the pyramids, and I use it all the time.
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Oh, I get it. Especially when it comes to the Egyptians. Shy

You see, Herodotus wasn't entirely accurate either, he only ever claimed that he was reporting only what had been told to him. He was an information gatherer and translator - and much like us, his gathered info was a couple thousand years in the making before he gathered it. Wink

Yes, slaves did not build the pyramids, regular citizens did. However, a more important fact about Herodotus was that he was a Greek, living at a time when Egypt was just beginning to (somewhat begrudgingly) open up to outsiders.

Egypt was terrifically baffling to the Greeks. Herodotus got a lot of things wrong... possibly subtle things but, these are no less important to attitude about his subjects. He may have romanticized about, what would to him be ancient Egyptians, due to his understanding of his contemporaries both Greek & Egyptian.

All I'm saying is, since one can not accurately know much from gathered oral histories, one must continually keep one's mind open and take even "all we know to be fact", with a grain of salt.

As well, one can't expect anyone else to regard one's insistence of a thing as the end all and be all of that thing. Especially when so much of what we refer to as "history" is quite often gleaned from speculation and even possible conjecture.

***
By the way, if you are really into ancient Egypt, you might find 1177 B.C. : the year civilization collapsed by Eric H. Cline, to be a fair read. Thumbsup

It's a bit dry but maps out the over all area pretty well. Shitload about war, of course. I was disappointed it didn't cover the great famines & drought that killed millions but, I think the sources were somewhat limited and that may have caused the focus to be a bit narrow.

Toby Wilkinson's, Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt, is great, too. But there again, very limited source material makes a narrow focus.
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I think you get what I mean.

Now, go read 14 different books by really boring guys about Jesus having existed. Then, read 14 more about him having not existed ... and then, you probably won't find any of it worth the trouble of debate. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-05-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: I may not be back for some time
(12-05-2017 10:40 AM)Aractus Wrote:  And then you claim I can't discuss things that I want to discuss, and that I don't belong anywhere.
I said LITERALLY the opposite of that.

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12-05-2017, 01:55 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 02:10 PM by Vera.)
RE: I may not be back for some time
Edited because apparently this is in the FREAKING support section.

Can you say path...

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12-05-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: I may not be back for some time
(11-05-2017 10:12 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(11-05-2017 09:08 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Right. Slurring everyone, for disagreeing with you, in your own thread complaining about being slurred because people disagree with you. There is no fundamentalism here. I don't even know what you're talking about. Well, we might have a few fundamentalist theists.

It's not meant to be a slur or attack. It's an observation - perhaps an imperfect one, perhaps an incomplete one, perhaps a completely wrong one. You can call it in-group bias or whatever you want, I call it fundamentalism. I'm in the out-group, people in the out-group see the in-group differently; just as you would see my in-group differently from the perspective of the out-group. People are protective of their in-groups like culture for example, and that's fine, but it doesn't make their culture any better than another person's.

I get along fine here, and I'm no fundamentalist atheist. I don't agree with everyone here on everything. And more to the point, I don't need to. I don't see the point over worrying over the opinions of strangers regarding me as a person. If someone wants to belittle me for this or that opinion, I find that a healthy "fuck off" and moving on works.

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12-05-2017, 03:53 PM
RE: I may not be back for some time
Aractus, I happen to agree with you nearly 100% on the Jesus-as-real-guy thing, though I'm a bit more skeptical of some of the source reliability than guys like you and Dr. Ehrman. Fine. But I consider you abrasive enough in the way you treat the rest of us that I was compelled to start my post to you in the "was Jesus real" (or whatever the title) thread with "oh fuck off". That should tell you something, A.

Even though I am not a Mythicist, and have even modified my views slightly over time in the direction of the arguments you have made, you have also previously attacked my intelligence, honesty, and integrity over the subject because I was more skeptical of the quality of evidence for the real Jesus of Nazareth than most scholars seem to be (and have pointed out that many of the assumptions most scholars seem to be making about why they consider said evidence "reliable" are bogus), and I have watched you treat me (and anyone who does not come to the same conclusions as you) as if they are less intelligent, less honest, and or less honorable than you are. I am shocked that you expect to get away with this attitude toward others without repercussion.

I think you are dead wrong about "fundamentalism", here... and I say this as someone who comes from a fundamentalist background. I hope you don't leave the forum, or return when you're cooled down from the sting of the abuses, as I did.

I also hope that when you return you have learned to recognize the intelligence and integrity of your fellow atheists, and are less aggressive/abrasive, so that you get along with others better. I think your voice adds much to our discussions, here.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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