I need Hitchens, quick!
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08-12-2012, 12:39 AM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
Here's a few simple testicle kickers....

If Atheism is a religion, then....

1: ...why can they not in many states run for public office?
2: ....how come Atheism does not adhere to spirituality?
3: ....why does it not have organized benefits that justify specific behaviors otherwise not affiliated to dignified humanity?
4: ....where are all the sermons and commemorations that separate one atheist from another. (example: in Christianity you have a pastor over a congregation.)
5: ....what are all the categories of atheist definitions?
6: ....Have they ever read Percy Bysshe Shelley's essay "The Necessity of Atheism?"
7: ....what is defined as "superstitious" according to religious practice for an atheist if it is a religion?
8: ....why in every poll do they separate those questioned as who are religious and who are atheist?
9: ....why does atheism have no mascot or symbol?
10: ....why does atheism have no specific lifestyle stapled to its name?
11: ...what constitutes atheism as a medium for humanitarianism?

I'm certain by this point you get my meaning. As far as Hitchens goes, the subtitle of his book "God is Not Great" should scar their assumption of his supposed declaration of atheism being a religion if he were alive enough. (Religion Poisons Everything.) I would force them to dissect their principles of what they define atheism under, from the sounds of it they are omitting the will to be the diction of what defines a non-believer.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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08-12-2012, 12:53 AM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
google is your friend.

and only takes 0.016seconds to find you answers, not 6minutes.

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08-12-2012, 07:25 AM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
I guess atheism could be considered a religion, even though I disagree. Atheists vary in personal beliefs even more so than all the different christians out there do with each other. Truly the only belief we all share is that god either does not exist or there is not enough evidence to support belief. As far as everything else goes, all bets are off. It might help our case though if we did start calling it a religion though. Maybe we can get the tax benefits that go with it and pour money into things that matter.
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08-12-2012, 04:58 PM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(07-12-2012 08:59 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Although I don't personally believe that it is a religion, I could, and indeed have made the argument that it can be considered a religion, depending on the definition you use. It does not entirely conflict with dictionary.reference.com's definition. I wrote an essay for my composition class in favor of the idea that atheism could be considered a religion. Again, it's not my personal belief, I wrote it for arguments sake, but their is an argument to be made.
Maybe, but not a coherent or logical one. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-12-2012, 01:17 AM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(08-12-2012 04:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 08:59 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Although I don't personally believe that it is a religion, I could, and indeed have made the argument that it can be considered a religion, depending on the definition you use. It does not entirely conflict with dictionary.reference.com's definition. I wrote an essay for my composition class in favor of the idea that atheism could be considered a religion. Again, it's not my personal belief, I wrote it for arguments sake, but their is an argument to be made.
Maybe, but not a coherent or logical one. Drinking Beverage
Atheism; the Counter Religion, or the Non-Religion?
Many Atheists, when asked what their religion is would answer “I am an Atheist”, but many others would answer “I have no religion.” While most Atheists who would answer with the former, many of those would explain their answer was just to save time by not having to explain that they lack a religion. To determine what Atheism is, a lack of a religion or a religion of skepticism, the definition of religion must first be defined. It must also be determined what Atheists believe about themselves. Lastly we must determine whether Atheists opinions define themselves, or if they are defined by others.
According to dictionary.com’s first, and most in depth definition religion is “A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.” Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and though it does not include a belief in the creation of the universe by a superhuman agency or agencies, it is not a necessary requirement for a religion, as per this definition; the definition says it is especially considered a religion with these ideas, but it does not exclude non-belief in superhuman agencies. The next part of the definition concerns a set of ritual observances, and morals or values observed by a group or sect; However, the definition says that this is the usual case for religion, and again, not necessary. Even so, some Atheists do follow a strict moral code, and practice rituals. Some Unitarian Universalists are also Atheists, and attend weekly meetings and have discussion and certainly abide by a code of morality. Another movement within Atheism is called Atheism + (pronounced Atheism Plus). They too hold meetings, have a specific moral code, and even have a religious agenda. They are charitable, have a deep interest in how politics affect their beliefs, and personal lives.
Most Atheists believe that they are “A-Religious” or without a religion. Not all agree, however. This is a topic of semi-regular discussion at a lot of online forums dedicated to “Free-Thinking”, Atheism, and similar groups. It is also frequently a topic of many social clubs of this variety. The consensuses for a particular group is almost never agreed upon which suggests that at least some Atheists believe that they do have a religion, although the overwhelming majority do not. Many atheists, though still a minority, consider “Gods” to be nothing more than sufficiently advanced aliens who were misinterpreted to be all-knowing, and all-powerful. They do not all dismiss the idea of meta-physical realities, or the belief in an eternal soul, the only thing all Atheists have in common is a disbelief in God.
Who decides what is a religion? Is it the people themselves or the outsiders looking in? This is not always easy to answer. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was a prophet from God, but are heretics by the Catholic and Protestant definition because they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore, from an Catholic and Protestant viewpoint they are not Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses do however preach the message of Jesus, and consider themselves to be Christian. Conversely, Muslims certainly believe in Jesus, and read his teachings in their Holy Book. It could be argued that they too are Christians though they would not consider themselves to be. A rose by any other name is but a rose after all.
Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word. They certainly do not all have the same beliefs, but no religion that has existed more than a century does. While it is far from agreed upon, at least some Atheists consider their beliefs to be in agreement with what is means to be a religion. Whether it is or not, it is certainly not undisputed. The logical conclusion to all of this information is that it is at least open for debate.



Logical? Check. Coherent? Check? Overwhelmingly persuasive? Not so much. Keep in mind I wrote this thing in about 40 minutes...

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10-12-2012, 09:31 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2012 09:35 AM by Vosur.)
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Many Atheists, when asked what their religion is would answer “I am an Atheist”, but many others would answer “I have no religion.” While most Atheists who would answer with the former [...]
How do you know this?

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and though it does not include a belief in the creation of the universe by a superhuman agency or agencies, it is not a necessary requirement for a religion, as per this definition; the definition says it is especially considered a religion with these ideas, but it does not exclude non-belief in superhuman agencies.
Atheists as individuals may or may not be concerned with these topics, it's irrelevant because it has no impact on the definition of the term. You see, atheism itself doesn't have anything to do with any of this.

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The next part of the definition concerns a set of ritual observances, and morals or values observed by a group or sect; However, the definition says that this is the usual case for religion, and again, not necessary. Even so, some Atheists do follow a strict moral code, and practice rituals. Some Unitarian Universalists are also Atheists, and attend weekly meetings and have discussion and certainly abide by a code of morality. Another movement within Atheism is called Atheism + (pronounced Atheism Plus). They too hold meetings, have a specific moral code, and even have a religious agenda. They are charitable, have a deep interest in how politics affect their beliefs, and personal lives.
See above. Atheism is simply the absence/lack of belief in gods. Everything beyond that point is an individual's choice.

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word.
As I've said previously, since atheism has absolutely nothing to do with morality, rituals, or the cause, nature and purpose of our universe, it is most definitely ruled out as a religion.

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The logical conclusion to all of this information is that it is at least open for debate.


Logical? Check. Coherent? Check? Overwhelmingly persuasive? Not so much. Keep in mind I wrote this thing in about 40 minutes...
Atheism does not fulfill any of the criteria necessary for being classified as a religion. Your argument is neither logical, nor is it coherent.

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10-12-2012, 12:40 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2012 12:44 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(10-12-2012 09:31 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Many Atheists, when asked what their religion is would answer “I am an Atheist”, but many others would answer “I have no religion.” While most Atheists who would answer with the former [...]
How do you know this?

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and though it does not include a belief in the creation of the universe by a superhuman agency or agencies, it is not a necessary requirement for a religion, as per this definition; the definition says it is especially considered a religion with these ideas, but it does not exclude non-belief in superhuman agencies.
Atheists as individuals may or may not be concerned with these topics, it's irrelevant because it has no impact on the definition of the term. You see, atheism itself doesn't have anything to do with any of this.

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The next part of the definition concerns a set of ritual observances, and morals or values observed by a group or sect; However, the definition says that this is the usual case for religion, and again, not necessary. Even so, some Atheists do follow a strict moral code, and practice rituals. Some Unitarian Universalists are also Atheists, and attend weekly meetings and have discussion and certainly abide by a code of morality. Another movement within Atheism is called Atheism + (pronounced Atheism Plus). They too hold meetings, have a specific moral code, and even have a religious agenda. They are charitable, have a deep interest in how politics affect their beliefs, and personal lives.
See above. Atheism is simply the absence/lack of belief in gods. Everything beyond that point is an individual's choice.

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word.
As I've said previously, since atheism has absolutely nothing to do with morality, rituals, or the cause, nature and purpose of our universe, it is most definitely ruled out as a religion.

(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The logical conclusion to all of this information is that it is at least open for debate.


Logical? Check. Coherent? Check? Overwhelmingly persuasive? Not so much. Keep in mind I wrote this thing in about 40 minutes...
Atheism does not fulfill any of the criteria necessary for being classified as a religion. Your argument is neither logical, nor is it coherent.
  1. Personal experience, hell that's been established on this very forum. I was careful to use the word "many", many can be anything, a hundred, a thousand, a million. It can be five...
  2. Having a disbelief in gods definitely fundamentally changes the nature of the universe, just as a belief in gods do. It isn't irrelevant by a long shot. One directly affects the understanding of the other profoundly, don't kid yourself.
  3. Yes, I am arguing that Atheism can be a religion, not that it is. I'm surprised you hadn't caught on to that by now...
  4. Again, it sometimes is...
  5. Sure it is...

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10-12-2012, 12:48 PM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 04:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe, but not a coherent or logical one. Drinking Beverage
Atheism; the Counter Religion, or the Non-Religion?
Many Atheists, when asked what their religion is would answer “I am an Atheist”, but many others would answer “I have no religion.” While most Atheists who would answer with the former, many of those would explain their answer was just to save time by not having to explain that they lack a religion. To determine what Atheism is, a lack of a religion or a religion of skepticism, the definition of religion must first be defined. It must also be determined what Atheists believe about themselves. Lastly we must determine whether Atheists opinions define themselves, or if they are defined by others.
According to dictionary.com’s first, and most in depth definition religion is “A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.” Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and though it does not include a belief in the creation of the universe by a superhuman agency or agencies, it is not a necessary requirement for a religion, as per this definition; the definition says it is especially considered a religion with these ideas, but it does not exclude non-belief in superhuman agencies. The next part of the definition concerns a set of ritual observances, and morals or values observed by a group or sect; However, the definition says that this is the usual case for religion, and again, not necessary. Even so, some Atheists do follow a strict moral code, and practice rituals. Some Unitarian Universalists are also Atheists, and attend weekly meetings and have discussion and certainly abide by a code of morality. Another movement within Atheism is called Atheism + (pronounced Atheism Plus). They too hold meetings, have a specific moral code, and even have a religious agenda. They are charitable, have a deep interest in how politics affect their beliefs, and personal lives.
Most Atheists believe that they are “A-Religious” or without a religion. Not all agree, however. This is a topic of semi-regular discussion at a lot of online forums dedicated to “Free-Thinking”, Atheism, and similar groups. It is also frequently a topic of many social clubs of this variety. The consensuses for a particular group is almost never agreed upon which suggests that at least some Atheists believe that they do have a religion, although the overwhelming majority do not. Many atheists, though still a minority, consider “Gods” to be nothing more than sufficiently advanced aliens who were misinterpreted to be all-knowing, and all-powerful. They do not all dismiss the idea of meta-physical realities, or the belief in an eternal soul, the only thing all Atheists have in common is a disbelief in God.
Who decides what is a religion? Is it the people themselves or the outsiders looking in? This is not always easy to answer. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was a prophet from God, but are heretics by the Catholic and Protestant definition because they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore, from an Catholic and Protestant viewpoint they are not Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses do however preach the message of Jesus, and consider themselves to be Christian. Conversely, Muslims certainly believe in Jesus, and read his teachings in their Holy Book. It could be argued that they too are Christians though they would not consider themselves to be. A rose by any other name is but a rose after all.
Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word. They certainly do not all have the same beliefs, but no religion that has existed more than a century does. While it is far from agreed upon, at least some Atheists consider their beliefs to be in agreement with what is means to be a religion. Whether it is or not, it is certainly not undisputed. The logical conclusion to all of this information is that it is at least open for debate.



Logical? Check. Coherent? Check? Overwhelmingly persuasive? Not so much. Keep in mind I wrote this thing in about 40 minutes...
I disagree with just about everything you wrote here. There is nothing about "atheism" that says "Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". Some are, some are not - just because you are concerned about it, or just because you see some atheists here talking about it, or on YouTube talking about it, doesn't mean this is a shared "concern" for all atheists. "Atheism" is ONLY the lack of belief in gods. That's it. It has nothing to do with any "concerns" about anything.

Some truck drivers are concerned about the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, but it doesn't make truck driving a religion. The same is true for atheism.

Furthermore, you say "at least some Atheists believe that they do have a religion" but this does not mean atheism is a religion. Just because some atheists are willing to "believe" in some metaphysical stuff, or even less than that, "believe" in the lack of gods as a matter of faith rather than as merely a default position that lacks belief in any gods, that doesn't mean that all atheists are this way. Even in your logical, coherent essay, you admit that most atheists don't feel this way.

Some truck drivers claim to have faith in a religion, but it doesn't make all truck drivers religious. The same is true for atheism.

As for moral code, many atheists do have some kind of moral code, but this is true of humans in general. Most humans follow some kind of moral code. Some of us get our codes from our parents, some from a book, some from a church, some from watching Star Wars for all I know. Having a moral code does not make a person religious.

Some truck drivers live by moral codes, but that doesn't mean all truck drivers are religious. The same is true for atheism.

Finally, you conclude that "Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word" but earlier you gave the "first and most in-depth definition" of religion as "A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

But your conclusion is completely, entirely, totally incorrect according to the very definition of religion that you provide in the same essay:
  • Atheism is NOT a "set of beliefs".
  • Atheism is NOT concerned with "the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe".
  • Atheism does NOT accept that anything is "the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies".
  • Atheism does NOT involve "devotional and ritual observances".
  • Atheism does NOT have "a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs".
So here, I'll strike out all the irrelevant parts of your own "first and most in-depth" definition of religion, leaving only the parts that actually might be applicable to atheism:

"A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

What's left of your definition? "A... and."

Not a whole lot left, is there?

So uncheck your "Logical?" checkbox there because your pseudo-logic all flows from a flawed premise.

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10-12-2012, 02:43 PM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(10-12-2012 12:48 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(10-12-2012 01:17 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Atheism; the Counter Religion, or the Non-Religion?
Many Atheists, when asked what their religion is would answer “I am an Atheist”, but many others would answer “I have no religion.” While most Atheists who would answer with the former, many of those would explain their answer was just to save time by not having to explain that they lack a religion. To determine what Atheism is, a lack of a religion or a religion of skepticism, the definition of religion must first be defined. It must also be determined what Atheists believe about themselves. Lastly we must determine whether Atheists opinions define themselves, or if they are defined by others.
According to dictionary.com’s first, and most in depth definition religion is “A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.” Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and though it does not include a belief in the creation of the universe by a superhuman agency or agencies, it is not a necessary requirement for a religion, as per this definition; the definition says it is especially considered a religion with these ideas, but it does not exclude non-belief in superhuman agencies. The next part of the definition concerns a set of ritual observances, and morals or values observed by a group or sect; However, the definition says that this is the usual case for religion, and again, not necessary. Even so, some Atheists do follow a strict moral code, and practice rituals. Some Unitarian Universalists are also Atheists, and attend weekly meetings and have discussion and certainly abide by a code of morality. Another movement within Atheism is called Atheism + (pronounced Atheism Plus). They too hold meetings, have a specific moral code, and even have a religious agenda. They are charitable, have a deep interest in how politics affect their beliefs, and personal lives.
Most Atheists believe that they are “A-Religious” or without a religion. Not all agree, however. This is a topic of semi-regular discussion at a lot of online forums dedicated to “Free-Thinking”, Atheism, and similar groups. It is also frequently a topic of many social clubs of this variety. The consensuses for a particular group is almost never agreed upon which suggests that at least some Atheists believe that they do have a religion, although the overwhelming majority do not. Many atheists, though still a minority, consider “Gods” to be nothing more than sufficiently advanced aliens who were misinterpreted to be all-knowing, and all-powerful. They do not all dismiss the idea of meta-physical realities, or the belief in an eternal soul, the only thing all Atheists have in common is a disbelief in God.
Who decides what is a religion? Is it the people themselves or the outsiders looking in? This is not always easy to answer. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was a prophet from God, but are heretics by the Catholic and Protestant definition because they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or that Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore, from an Catholic and Protestant viewpoint they are not Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses do however preach the message of Jesus, and consider themselves to be Christian. Conversely, Muslims certainly believe in Jesus, and read his teachings in their Holy Book. It could be argued that they too are Christians though they would not consider themselves to be. A rose by any other name is but a rose after all.
Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word. They certainly do not all have the same beliefs, but no religion that has existed more than a century does. While it is far from agreed upon, at least some Atheists consider their beliefs to be in agreement with what is means to be a religion. Whether it is or not, it is certainly not undisputed. The logical conclusion to all of this information is that it is at least open for debate.



Logical? Check. Coherent? Check? Overwhelmingly persuasive? Not so much. Keep in mind I wrote this thing in about 40 minutes...
I disagree with just about everything you wrote here. There is nothing about "atheism" that says "Atheists are concerned with the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". Some are, some are not - just because you are concerned about it, or just because you see some atheists here talking about it, or on YouTube talking about it, doesn't mean this is a shared "concern" for all atheists. "Atheism" is ONLY the lack of belief in gods. That's it. It has nothing to do with any "concerns" about anything.

Some truck drivers are concerned about the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, but it doesn't make truck driving a religion. The same is true for atheism.

Furthermore, you say "at least some Atheists believe that they do have a religion" but this does not mean atheism is a religion. Just because some atheists are willing to "believe" in some metaphysical stuff, or even less than that, "believe" in the lack of gods as a matter of faith rather than as merely a default position that lacks belief in any gods, that doesn't mean that all atheists are this way. Even in your logical, coherent essay, you admit that most atheists don't feel this way.

Some truck drivers claim to have faith in a religion, but it doesn't make all truck drivers religious. The same is true for atheism.

As for moral code, many atheists do have some kind of moral code, but this is true of humans in general. Most humans follow some kind of moral code. Some of us get our codes from our parents, some from a book, some from a church, some from watching Star Wars for all I know. Having a moral code does not make a person religious.

Some truck drivers live by moral codes, but that doesn't mean all truck drivers are religious. The same is true for atheism.

Finally, you conclude that "Atheism is not ruled out as a religion by the strict definition of the word" but earlier you gave the "first and most in-depth definition" of religion as "A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

But your conclusion is completely, entirely, totally incorrect according to the very definition of religion that you provide in the same essay:
  • Atheism is NOT a "set of beliefs".
  • Atheism is NOT concerned with "the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe".
  • Atheism does NOT accept that anything is "the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies".
  • Atheism does NOT involve "devotional and ritual observances".
  • Atheism does NOT have "a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs".
So here, I'll strike out all the irrelevant parts of your own "first and most in-depth" definition of religion, leaving only the parts that actually might be applicable to atheism:

"A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

What's left of your definition? "A... and."

Not a whole lot left, is there?

So uncheck your "Logical?" checkbox there because your pseudo-logic all flows from a flawed premise.
Dude, you just completly ignored all of the counter-points made when in your bulleted list, and in your srtike-through definition which was made to try and make me look absurd. As I stated, a lot of that definition uses soft words like "especially", "usually", and "often", which I exploited. The reason why the definition contains such soft words is because religion as a concept is so flexible it is ridiculous. Nothing I used was pseudo-logic. You also also said, either intentionally, or without thinking about it that said people do not define themselves, which is an issue I addressed, but you should consider it. Not saying you are wrong on that point, but I got the feeling you didn't give it much, if any consideration.

Again, I am not saying in this article that Atheism is a religion, but that it is not precluded from being a religion for some folks. The title is a guise to get someone's attention, in this case my teacher, which is part of the grade.

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10-12-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: I need Hitchens, quick!
(07-12-2012 04:37 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Tell your friend(s) to take a look in a dictionary. Drinking Beverage

religion
Syllabification: (re·li·gion)
Pronunciation: /riˈlijən/
noun
・the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods
・a particular system of faith and worship
・a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance

atheism
Syllabification: (a·the·ism)
Pronunciation: /ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
・disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
This is also in TEXTBOOKS, for the definition of religion. = P

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Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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