I need help finding a bible passage
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18-04-2013, 03:08 PM
I need help finding a bible passage
In a debate with a FB friend over homosexuality the following gauntlet was thrown.

HER: What I can tell you is that I stick to the scriptures. That's all I've got but that's enough.

ME: But do you agree with everything in the scriptures? What about all the archaic laws Leviticus? Or what Timothy says about women? If you don't follow them why do you follow anti-homosexual writings?

HER: Because all of the laws you are talking about have other things in scripture that are contradictory. When it comes to homosexuality that isn't the case. I have studied scripture and have tried to find anything to contradict it but haven't been able to

MEConfusedo if I can find a contradiction for anti-homosexual belief you would change your mind? Give me a bit and I'll answer that.

HER:<Her Husband> has spent lots and lots of sleepless nights trying to find something and he is a Pastor with a masters of divinity. If it was that easy we would have found it. So I say to you good luck.

So I need help finding a line in scripture that supports homosexuality, several would be better. She and her husband are good people and I'm not trying to hurt them. But I want to strip away that excuse if I can.

Any help would be welcome, it's a big task and I need all I can get.
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18-04-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
Well, there is 'let he who is without sin', covers pretty much everything.
There is thou shalt not kill, followed by everyone who has to be put to death.
There is love thy neighbour, again, followed by Kill 'em all.

There was this picture of all the hundreds of contradictions of the bible circulating 2 weeks ago.

Easiest to ask is if she eats shrimp, also carries the death penalty.
Or wearing clothes made of more than one material (wool, cotton, poly, etc blends) also should come with a lethal injection.

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18-04-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
The problem is she's found "contradictions" to the Leviticus laws, or so she says. So I need verses that are pro-homosexual to contradict the anti ones.

I'm not saying her logic is sound, I'm just playing the game by her rules.
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18-04-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
I think the OP wants a contradiction specifically where the bible says it's OK to be gay, contradicting the parts that say it's not OK.

I don't think you're going to get such a contradiction. In this, I think your friend and her husband are technically correct; the bible universally bashes homosexuality without any contradicting support of it. That doesn't make them philosophically or ethically correct, nor do I condone their narrow-mindedness, nor do I condone their living their life according to ancient teachings of unsophisticated and mostly uneducated men. But I think they're technically correct about the bible's approach to homosexuality.

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18-04-2013, 04:19 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
You're not going to find Bible verses that support your position. It basically comes down to interpretation. What do the Hebrew and Greek words that get translated into "Homosexual Acts" actually mean? There are essentially four views about how to interpret the passages in both the OT and NT:

"1. The passages in question refer to homosexual practice in all times and cultures and so universally prohibit such practice.

2. The passages do not refer to homosexuality as we know it today and so cannot be seen as prohibiting it. Other passages therefore need to inform our discussions about sexuality in general and homosexual relationships in particular.

3. The passages may or may not refer to homosexuality as we know it, but they -- and the larger witness of Scripture -- imply a view of nature and creation that supports sexual relationship and union only between man and woman, and so homosexual practice is prohibited.

4. The passages may or may not refer to homosexuality as we know it, but they -- and all of Scripture -- are conditioned by the cultural and historical realities of the authors and so offer an incomplete and insufficient understanding of creation and nature and so cannot be used to prohibit homosexual practice today. Rather, one needs to read the larger biblical witness to discern God's hopes for caring, mutually supportive relationships, whether heterosexual or homosexual."

I picked these quotes up from here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lose...90444.html

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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18-04-2013, 08:13 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
I asked for an example of the contradiction that she found for Timothy 2:12 so i had an idea of what she would find acceptable.
I was told that I has to "study scripture in its totality - the words themselves, the settings, the original language & how passages fit together throughout the Bible. Some passages are literal, some like the parables are teaching principles. It's usually not good to take one verse out of its context to get an accurate interpretation."

That's right, the context defense.

I haven't given up yet.
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18-04-2013, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2013 03:02 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
The question is "How did the laws/regulations get there in the first place ?"
Every law in the Old Testament existed in the culture BEFORE it got written into the Bible. That alone should tell you something.
As Drs. Richard Elliott Friedmann, ("Who Wrote the Bible") and Shawna Dolansky, (scripture scholars, see below) have pointed out, the reason the laws were written into Leviticus in the first place, was because the authors of Leviticus were concerned with EQUALITY, not inequality. The perception at the time, in that culture, was that anal penetration "feminized" a man, thus making his status UNEQUAL. The concern was with maintaining male staus and equality. It had nothing to do with sexuality, as there was no concept of sexual orientation until the late 19th Century. Every man, (and woman) was assumed to be straight, (until it was discoved that is not true, and secondary to whatever it is in utero that does the job..homone surge ?? or whatever).

Thus :
1. The laws came from the culture, not the culture from the laws.
2. The concern had nothing to do with sexuality, but with male equality, and status, and dignity.
3. There were levels of "abominations".
--- a. an "abomination" to Yahweh was the highest. It was NOT one of these.
---b. a cultural abomination, such as eating with a non-believer, (such as an Egyptian), it was not even one of these.
---c. a ritual or cleanliness "abomination".

Sexual sins were the lowest form of abomination, and it did not even necessarily mean they were "sinful", just "unclean".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_(Bible)
Ultimately what they are doing, is making an "ultimate" claim about something which is cultually relative. There are no two way about it.
There is no reason with more scientific imformation, sinch human sexulaity has come to be understood, that the rules should not be reevaluated.
The bullshit about "oh we found other quotes" is crap. If ANY quote is invalid, then the WHOLE thing is invalid. A different quote does not somehow make the first quote not necessary to follow. It's just cafeteria quote mining. Very childish, literalist, simplistic and juvenile. Tell them to grow up.




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18-04-2013, 08:32 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

Thus proving that homosexuality is NOT a problem for...


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19-04-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
Wait, so did she find a passage that specifically says it's OK to wear mixed fabrics or for women to speak up in church? Or is she hiding behind one of the more generic ones, like "love thy neighbor"? Cause you can do that too.

And if it's a matter of context, I read somewhere that "One shall not lie with a man as one does with a woman" means that one should not treat a man as one would a woman, because women were inferior, women were property. I'll look for the source of that later, once I'm feeling less lazy.

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19-04-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: I need help finding a bible passage
Ok...not sure if this applies but I believe that Christians believe that jesus fulfilled the prophesy and in doing that none of the old testimant laws and rules needed to be followed. Like eating pig, wearing different fabrics...etc. Only the ones jesus mentioned specifically....I always found that a bit tenuous.

So if you look for something to refute the passages against homosexuality you need to look to the NT.

Now I'm not sure but I think jesus never said anything about homosexuality. But I think Saul of tartus did.

There was a passage often twitsted about two men lying together and one is taken...

But I really never thought that was about homosexual behavior.


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Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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