I need help to debunk a creationist :P
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04-05-2014, 09:58 AM
I need help to debunk a creationist :P
Hello, i would like to have some help in debunking the things that Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig says in a podcast and writes in his anti-evolutionist book, The evolution of the long necked giraffe

Here is the link to those who has the time to listen to a 5 minute bit of the podcast, his stupidity basically starts after 14 minutes and forward.. http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/e...0_09-07_00

To those that don't have the time to listen, here is his main points:

First of he talks about all the amazing features of the giraffe that makes it able to do things like drinking water despite of its long neck, pumping blood all the way to its head and that it has thick veins so that they don't burst due to the high blood pressure and so on..
He then continues by saying that, it is impossible for a short necked giraffe to have evolved into a long necked giraffe because it would need to have evolved all of the above mentioned complex features needed for an animal with such a long neck.. Here are some of his assertions:

"you cannot, as whats suggested by Richard Dawkins just simply stretch out the neck during an embryonic deviation and then have a long necked giraffe"

Has Richard Dawkins ever said such a thing? It sounds to me that Dr. Lönning is saying that he thinks that Dawkins says that a short necked giraffe gave birth to a long necked giraffe ^.- or am i misinterpreting what Lönning is saying?

Then he basically says: ONE LARGE or a FEW mutations cannot have produced all the complex features that the giraffe needs to survive with its long neck, such as a large heart and thick blood vessels

My question is; Is it really mutations that has produced these features? isn't it just natural selection that has been effecting the the size of the heart and the needed thick blood vessels during a loooong time for it to be able to survive with such a long neck?

He then says that it is impossible for a short necked giraffe to evolve to a long necked giraffe through random mutations..

And again i ask.. Has anyone ever said that the giraffes long neck is due to mutations?! Isn't it due to natural selection that the giraffes neck has become so long?

Sorry if my english was inadequate, it isn't my first language : P
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04-05-2014, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2014 11:56 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
Hi. Smile

The very first thing that came to my mind was this Youtube article.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0

It features Richard Dawkins and a Giraffe. Big Grin

So...basically...it's pointing out some of the 'Poor designs' within the Giraffe. Smile

Hope that helps as something to begin with.

Edit: I must admit, after listening to said pod cast. Even to my lay-man's mind,

"Teh stoopid? It Hurts!"

Much cheers to all.
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04-05-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
He'd just explain away the "poor design" as just ill consequences of the fall. There are YEC's that believe living beings are basically "devolving" from more genetically sound forms of life, so any "flaws" would just be blamed on sin.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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04-05-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
(04-05-2014 11:53 AM)Charis Wrote:  He'd just explain away the "poor design" as just ill consequences of the fall. There are YEC's that believe living beings are basically "devolving" from more genetically sound forms of life, so any "flaws" would just be blamed on sin.

*Nods* I suppose so. Though that example nerve doesn't 'Just mutate' into its position.

I'm pretty sure ALL animals/creatures have that nerve and it does the same, long, circuitous journey through/in all of them. The longer the neck, the longer the nerve.

So..in Adam and Eve...the nerve just went straight from brain to working muscles? Then "BAM!" the fall and whoops! Mutations throwing nerves all over the place? Of course, pretty much just that nerve....along that path....which is strangely, really similar across all kinds of animals.... Consider

I'm gon'a give up now while my brain isn't completely mush. Tongue

Much cheers to all.
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04-05-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
(04-05-2014 11:53 AM)Charis Wrote:  He'd just explain away the "poor design" as just ill consequences of the fall. There are YEC's that believe living beings are basically "devolving" from more genetically sound forms of life, so any "flaws" would just be blamed on sin.

How do giraffes 'sin,' anyway?

Being a YEC is a special kind of stupid.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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04-05-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
(04-05-2014 12:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  How do giraffes 'sin,' anyway?

Hey...that's an easy answer...

It's all that 'necking' they get up to. *Waggles eyebrows*

*Runs away before the groaning starts... *


Much cheers to all.
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04-05-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
(04-05-2014 12:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(04-05-2014 11:53 AM)Charis Wrote:  He'd just explain away the "poor design" as just ill consequences of the fall. There are YEC's that believe living beings are basically "devolving" from more genetically sound forms of life, so any "flaws" would just be blamed on sin.

How do giraffes 'sin,' anyway?

Being a YEC is a special kind of stupid.

They wouldn't be arguing that giraffes are sinning. Most of them wouldn't even be arguing that animals can sin at all. What they would usually be saying is that creation was initially perfect. When Adam and Eve sinned, this didn't affect just them, but this sin introduced sickness and death in everything and everyone everywhere.

Pretty much, that giraffe is stuck in an inferior body now, due to the sins of the original man and woman. Sin is often thought of as a disease, a disease that brought with it a whole bunch of other diseases.

Apparently, God either couldn't or WOULDN'T start creation without such a devastating vulnerability to something he knew (or predestined?) would happen. Sounds almost.... sinful.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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04-05-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
Sinful giraffes! ... The mind boggles Drinking Beverage

Welcome to the forum HHH Thumbsup

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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04-05-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
Sinful Giraffe says F*** you.

[Image: tongue_giraffe_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg]

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDT0d-FLuRzAdS6MEJRuO...MqGd3vd1w7]

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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04-05-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: I need help to debunk a creationist :P
(04-05-2014 01:23 PM)Charis Wrote:  Sinful Giraffe says F*** you.

[Image: tongue_giraffe_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg]

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDT0d-FLuRzAdS6MEJRuO...MqGd3vd1w7]

Hahaha Thug4lyfe! ... That's funny as fuck! Laugh out load

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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