I need help with some research.
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24-02-2012, 01:35 PM
I need help with some research.
I made a bet with a friend. If I could find two papal statements, those that are to be directly from their god, that contradict each other, he will read The God Delusion. Does anybody know where I could find said information?

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24-02-2012, 01:56 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
Does Jesus count?

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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24-02-2012, 02:03 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
(24-02-2012 01:35 PM)Science Believer Wrote:  I made a bet with a friend. If I could find two papal statements, those that are to be directly from their god, that contradict each other, he will read The God Delusion. Does anybody know where I could find said information?

Good luck, but with these qualifiers, I doubt you'll find them. The pope rarely says "I'm saying this on God's behalf", so even if you find two contradictory statements by popes it's unlikely that your friend will accept that they are "directly from God". It's a fool's errand.

I'd do the search myself, but I just realized that I don't care enough. Google "contradictions in solemn papal definitions" to see if someone has already looked into this (solemn papal definitions are, according to Wikipedia, what you're looking for).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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24-02-2012, 02:05 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
papal statements wouldn't require a god said, just look at the previous pope and the current one they contradict each other quite a bit.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-02-2012, 03:01 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
Well, thanks to the Papal infallibility, any contradictions you may find are irrelevant because of... Papal Infallibility!!

Quote:From Wiki:

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when in
his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works
in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility


(24-02-2012 02:03 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Good luck, but with these qualifiers, I doubt you'll find them. The pope rarely says "I'm saying this on God's behalf", so even if you find two contradictory statements by popes it's unlikely that your friend will accept that they are "directly from God". It's a fool's errand.

See ☟

Quote:It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics.

So the pope says what he says because of the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father (God) are one, he may say "I'm saying this on God's behalf" via the Holy Spirit.

Oh, that's fun!!

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24-02-2012, 09:41 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
Sorry to disappoint you but one of the main reasons we still hold the infallibility of the pope in this day and age is because there has never been a wrong or contradictory statement from the chair in the church's 2000 year history.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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24-02-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
(24-02-2012 09:41 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Sorry to disappoint you but one of the main reasons we still hold the infallibility of the pope in this day and age is because there has never been a wrong or contradictory statement from the chair in the church's 2000 year history.

Aren't you just precious! Heart
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24-02-2012, 10:03 PM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2012 10:16 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: I need help with some research.
(24-02-2012 09:41 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Sorry to disappoint you but one of the main reasons we still hold the infallibility of the pope in this day and age is because there has never been a wrong or contradictory statement from the chair in the church's 2000 year history.

Yeah... but it's not true. I'm sure you're well-aware that the concept of limbo was recently reneged. Sure, it wasn't "official" doctrine... except that popes before John Paul and Benedict did endorse it. And a simple google search turned up an article that listed 11 contradictions in papal declarations and internal workings of the Catholic church. And this one that lists how they have contradicted New Testament scripture. And there's this one that lists the very well-known contradiction between Pope Gregory XIII and Pope Gregory XIV on the issue of abortion (and in fact, I think this is the relevant meaning of papal contradiction, one between two different popes).

See, it's not enough just to assert that popes have been infallible, despite the pressures to make few "official" statements so that these things won't happen. KVRon, in checking out Wikipedia's entry, you did notice this, correct?

Quote:The Catholic Church does not teach that the pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare.

But despite that, they do happen. I think we're all very much educated about the mistakes Pope Benedict XVI made before he became a pope when he hid crimes by priests from various governments, breaking the law and thus scripture. And he didn't apologize for his past mistakes after it came to light, despite everyone expecting him to admit it after he had been caught red-handed. My Catholic friends tell me that this is not what papal infallibility means --- the pope is not considered infallible (despite it being equivocated in this manner) --- but rather it means that popes are perfect when they make declarations directly from God. Thus it affirms what I already said and what you'll find when you go back to your Catholic friends with examples; with the qualifiers they've set, none of your examples will get them to admit that there is a contradiction.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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25-02-2012, 05:18 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
Vatican commission: Limbo reflects 'restrictive view of salvation'
Spin all they want, they changed their position.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories...702216.htm


Kneel to receive communion. No one can make up their minds.
http://www.communion-in-the-hand.org/news.html

Good stuff here. Don't know of accuracy.
http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/ag0_popes.htm

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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25-02-2012, 11:09 PM
RE: I need help with some research.
(24-02-2012 09:41 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Sorry to disappoint you but one of the main reasons we still hold the infallibility of the pope in this day and age is because there has never been a wrong or contradictory statement from the chair in the church's 2000 year history.

Are you serious-- why does the church change positions then? If it is always infallible, then why is it that they change their views on things?

[EDIT: derail-ignore please]
This seems to be a common attack at science, but just look at Christian religions and you will find that they change much more than science, and while science requires reason and evidence to change, religion requires opinion. I believe there is something like 30000 denominations of just Christianity.
[/EDIT:derail-ignore please]
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