I need to be an atheist to set myself free
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12-10-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 03:54 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 03:37 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  This is one of the debating points atheists would make against religion. But we also have William Lane Craig who puts up good debating points against atheists as well. So that is why I remain agnostic. That is why I do not just jump to conclusions. I always remain open to both possibilities presented by both sides of the debate.

It is good to look at all sides. But at some point you have to decide for yourself if magic is a good enough explanation. If I told you I saw a winged creature flying around with a hot coal--would you believe me?
No, I would not believe you. But that is only because it is not a debate like we have between William Lane Craig and Lawrence Krauss/Richard Dawkins. If people tried to argue for the existence of that winged creature, then perhaps they would be insane and dumbfounded.

But this is not the case with William Lane Craig. So the fact that this is not the case with him means that the existence of God and hell are at least far more plausible than that winged creature.

The way I see it, God, heaven, and hell is all something philosophical. It is no different than the mind-body problem. We have debating points from both sides who are very intelligent and who am I to conclude which side is correct since I am one of far less intelligence?
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12-10-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 04:03 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 03:54 PM)jennybee Wrote:  It is good to look at all sides. But at some point you have to decide for yourself if magic is a good enough explanation. If I told you I saw a winged creature flying around with a hot coal--would you believe me?
No, I would not believe you. But that is only because it is not a debate like we have between William Lane Craig and Lawrence Krauss/Richard Dawkins. If people tried to argue for the existence of that winged creature, then perhaps they would be insane and dumbfounded.

But this is not the case with William Lane Craig. So the fact that this is not the case with him means that the existence of God and hell are at least far more plausible than that winged creature.

The way I see it, God, heaven, and hell is all something philosophical. It is no different than the mind-body problem. We have debating points from both sides who are very intelligent and who am I to conclude which side is correct since I am one of far less intelligence?

Okay, so you wouldn't believe me if I told you I saw a winged creature flying around with a hot coal because that would be insane. Yet, you believe in a book that has that very thing within its pages. Does that not seem strange to you?

Just because there may be some parts of the Bible that seem more "plausible" does not make it truth. And according to the Bible--if you want to believe in God--you need to believe it is *all* true, not just the parts you like best.

2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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12-10-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 03:37 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 03:14 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Listen to what you are saying--that a magical leprechaun that lives in a mansion and magical village in the clouds has the power to send you to a fiery inferno with a red, hoofed monster to torture you for eternity--all because you like to play music which offends said magical leprechaun.

The Bible also mentions a talking snake, a talking donkey, a worldwide flood *that covered the earth*, a winged creature that flies around with a hot coal, a person being turned into salt, demons causing illness and disease, God having his own private storehouses of snow up in the heavens, a firmament (kind of like Stephen King's Dome) that covers the earth, and zombies that get up out of their graves and walk around the city. And these are just a few of the myths you can read about in the Bible.

Do you know how many other cultures also have their own stories like this and their own gods? Thousands. All different beliefs, all different requirements for beliefs, all different gods. In paraphrasing author Guy P. Harrison--The only way to be *totally* sure that you are covered, is to worship every single one of these gods and adhere to each of their religions. And even if you spent (or wasted) your entire lifetime doing this, due to the vast majority of gods that ever are, ever were, and ever will be, you still will not have been able to worship all of them because there are simply too many.

So here's your choice, you can attempt to worship as many gods as you feasibly can in this lifetime based on random claims made by a variety of different people OR you can weigh claims rationally and logically based on scientific explanations and then draw your *own* conclusions.

(12-10-2016 03:33 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Watch this:





In fact watch every video on Darkmatter's channel. You are in fear of myth, unless your intellect can triumph over your primal fear, then you will remain in fear.

When you're done with that channel, move to this channel:





Fear diminishes with knowledge.
This is one of the debating points atheists would make against religion. But we also have William Lane Craig who puts up good debating points against atheists as well. So that is why I remain agnostic. That is why I do not just jump to conclusions. I always remain open to both possibilities presented by both sides of the debate.

William Lane Craig doesn't make any good points, you have to understand the science that debunks his fallacy-riddled arguments. Apologists are liars, they have wounded your intellect, you need to move beyond apologism.

Here's another good video:





Watch the entire series.

If all you're willing to do, is run to apologetics when arguments and evidence debunks apologist claims, then you can't even be honest with yourself, you can't even come to terms with KNOWING instead of questioning and you will languish in your mental torment. Do your homework, debunk the apologists.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-10-2016, 04:30 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2016 04:42 PM by OrdoSkeptica.)
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
Quote:It would obviously depend on the degree of pain in hell. If It were nothing more than some very minor ache in my arms that I had to live with, then hell would be no problem. But if it is burning in an eternal lake of fire, then that would obviously be the worst thing.

No i fear it's not obvious and far from a good reason to worship the Christian god



Quote:For me personally, eternal bliss would be the greatest thing. Everyone is different. I wish to be happy. That is an experience that makes my life worth living. As for going insane in heaven vs the torment in hell, I think hell would be worse because you are burning in a lake of fire on top of going insane for eternity.


Then i think your personally irrational as this would seems far from evident as the greatest thing. As i have said before a life of eternal bliss could only end in madness it only makes life worth it in a temporary state. as a wise philosopher once said everything in moderation. And once again this still isn't a good reason to follow a god



Quote:But since there would be no suffering up in heaven and since going bored and insane are a form of suffering, then one should never go bored and insane up in heaven anyway.


Sigh you miss the point living forever could only end in both no sentient mind could handle such a state. So no living forever would lead to both no matter what unless you were turned into an unthinking unfeeling robot. And did mention an after life is not a good reason to believe in god

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12-10-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 04:03 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  
(12-10-2016 03:54 PM)jennybee Wrote:  It is good to look at all sides. But at some point you have to decide for yourself if magic is a good enough explanation. If I told you I saw a winged creature flying around with a hot coal--would you believe me?
No, I would not believe you. But that is only because it is not a debate like we have between William Lane Craig and Lawrence Krauss/Richard Dawkins. If people tried to argue for the existence of that winged creature, then perhaps they would be insane and dumbfounded.

But this is not the case with William Lane Craig. So the fact that this is not the case with him means that the existence of God and hell are at least far more plausible than that winged creature.

The way I see it, God, heaven, and hell is all something philosophical. It is no different than the mind-body problem. We have debating points from both sides who are very intelligent and who am I to conclude which side is correct since I am one of far less intelligence?

I'll let you in on a secret, William Lane Craig's best argument, the Kalam cosmological argument, doesn't even make the case for the existence of god, it only makes the case for a cause of the universe, which can be anything.

The Kalam cosmological argument was created by Muslims to argue for the existence of Allah.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-10-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 03:37 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  This is one of the debating points atheists would make against religion. But we also have William Lane Craig who puts up good debating points against atheists as well.

No he doesn't.

He may be a skilled orator, but ALL his arguments are fallacious.

Not to mention, he was called out by Sean Carroll, a physicist, in a debate for misrepresenting Alan Guth's material about cosmology. And even after he was called out, he dishonestly, continued to misrepresent Guth.

Search youtube for Craig against Sean Carroll for the proof. There is even a moment in the debate where Carroll wheels out a monitor with a video of Guth stating exactly how Craig lies.

Quote: So that is why I remain agnostic.

It would seem as if you do not understand the meaning of the terms "agnostic" and "atheist".

Agnosticism is not some happy middle ground between atheism and theism.

Agnosticism is the position that the existence of a god is unknown, or possibly unknowable.

Atheism is the absence of belief in a god.

Agnostic-atheist is a legitimate position.

Quote: That is why I do not just jump to conclusions. I always remain open to both possibilities presented by both sides of the debate.

Most atheists are open to the possibility of the existence of a god. Atheism is usually a provisional position, not a dogmatic one.

My atheism will continue as long as the case for the existence of a god continues to fail to meet it's burden of proof.
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12-10-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 02:08 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  ...if God is the type of being who would send people such as myself to hell or not, etc.

Why would you worship the Creator of Hell? Given sufficient evidence you might believe in such an entity, but the sane response is to cower in terror. Or stage a revolt. You probably won't win but what's he going to do? Send you to Hell twice?

If I threaten to put your nuts in a vice and roast them with an oxy-acetylene torch for the rest of time would you worship me? No? See, that's sane. Thumbsup

If god really wants a loving relationship then perhaps he ought to put down the thumbscrews and hot poker.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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12-10-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
SMG - There are not two sides to reality.
There is reality and there is fantasy.
There are no rational debates about which one we are in.

There is however a little thing called delusion, in which our brains somehow confuse reality & fantasy, mixing them together into a brain mush that some say tastes really good.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-10-2016, 08:12 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 02:08 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  So I remain open to all possibilities. Agnosticism, to me, seems to be the right mindset to take.
Agnosticism/Gnosticism only deals with what you claim to know, not with what you believe. It's not a middle ground between atheism and theism as those deal with belief.
Do you believe a god exists? No? Then you are an atheist. Do you claim to KNOW a god doesn't exist? No? Then you are an agnostic.

Is your answer to both no? Then you are an agnostic atheist.


(12-10-2016 02:08 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  It is an ongoing debate as to if there is or is not a God, if the brain is the source of your awareness or not (the mind-body problem), if God is the type of being who would send people such as myself to hell or not, etc.
Honestly it's not. Anymore then there is an on going debate about Santa or fairies. They have had several THOUSAND years to provide a piece of evidence, a single one, and they have failed spectacularly. Not only can they not meet that requirement they can't even give a consistent definition, or even offer a way in which one COULD gather evidence.
There is no debate, just people who are stuck in outmoded ways of thinking and we have to drag them along into progress with us.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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12-10-2016, 08:13 PM
RE: I need to be an atheist to set myself free
(12-10-2016 04:41 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Most atheists are open to the possibility of the existence of a god. Atheism is usually a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. [...]

From my own perspective as a life-long atheist, I'd have to disagree with these claims about atheism.

I am most definitely not open to the possibility of the existence of gods. The illogical notion of supernatural entities is just a fiction perpetrated by ill-educated, superstitious, and fearful people thousands of years ago. No empirical evidence of even a suggestive nature has been found in the past 2,500 years supporting the notion of gods existing in the real world. That's good enough for me.

And there's no way I'd describe my atheism as "provisional". I've accepted it for more than half a century without wavering, and there's nothing that anybody can present to alter that. Nor is atheism a dogmatic position. It's nothing more than a state of mind—no dogma needed.

If you (apparently) accept that there could be extant gods, then I'm guessing your true position is agnostic?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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