I really need some help with this.....
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25-07-2013, 11:48 PM
I really need some help with this.....
as I had said in my intro, I'm new to atheism. I'm 49 yo, and although I consider myself to be one of the most fact based, non-gullible guys around, I had still continued to play "make believe" when it came to religion.... right up until the last month or so.

Not really sure what caused me to finally wake up. But here I am.

Now, I do have this one little hang up, and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
From 83'-91' I lived in an old, beat up mobile home (kind of funny story, my step father bought it for me, so my mom would then let him kick me out of the house, and into the trailer Smile LOL Worked out great for everybody !)
Anyway for that entire 8 year period, we had... uhhh... call it whatever you like ? A ghost ? A spirit ? An invisible force ? It never showed itself, but it showed its doings, on at least a weekly basis. I'd say, on average 2-3 X's a week. The vast majority of the time, it only did small, innocuous things, but on much rarer occasions, it did a few Holy $#@& things too.

I will be glad to go into these things ^ with all the detail you wish, if I'm not just instantly laughed off the stage for bringing it up already.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So here's my question..... and if you have never had anything "seemingly super natural" happen to you, at any time in your life, lets just make this question a hypothetical one;

So you have decided that based on all of the evidence (or should I say, the lack of) of God, that atheism just makes the most sense.

However "IF" you had personally dealt with something such as a spirit, or a ghost, not just once, but on literally thousands of occasions, over an 8 year period, how would you convince yourself that "even if" their were some kind of super natural forces going on there, their was still just no possibility of this other "myth" known as God ?

I have actually been contemplating a few potential scientific answers to this question..... But then I find myself feeling like I used to, when I'd try to come up with some kind of BS to try to make myself believe that God was real Huh

Or to put it another way, I start to get kind of doubtful, when I have to make a really big stretch, to come up with an answer....

Your thoughts ?
Fish

PS, BTW, I've never seen a UFO, and I don't believe in Bigfoot Smile ....nor have I ever had such an experience before, or after the 8 year period I posted about.
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25-07-2013, 11:57 PM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
Welcome..

I've lived in some old houses...

I used to believe in ghosts and stuff...I really don't anymore. I've stayed in more than a few places that were supposed to be haunted. Never saw a thing that I couldn't explain rationally.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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26-07-2013, 01:11 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
(25-07-2013 11:48 PM)fish chris Wrote:  as I had said in my intro, I'm new to atheism. I'm 49 yo, and although I consider myself to be one of the most fact based, non-gullible guys around, I had still continued to play "make believe" when it came to religion.... right up until the last month or so.

Not really sure what caused me to finally wake up. But here I am.

Now, I do have this one little hang up, and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
From 83'-91' I lived in an old, beat up mobile home (kind of funny story, my step father bought it for me, so my mom would then let him kick me out of the house, and into the trailer Smile LOL Worked out great for everybody !)
Anyway for that entire 8 year period, we had... uhhh... call it whatever you like ? A ghost ? A spirit ? An invisible force ? It never showed itself, but it showed its doings, on at least a weekly basis. I'd say, on average 2-3 X's a week. The vast majority of the time, it only did small, innocuous things, but on much rarer occasions, it did a few Holy $#@& things too.

I will be glad to go into these things ^ with all the detail you wish, if I'm not just instantly laughed off the stage for bringing it up already.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So here's my question..... and if you have never had anything "seemingly super natural" happen to you, at any time in your life, lets just make this question a hypothetical one;

So you have decided that based on all of the evidence (or should I say, the lack of) of God, that atheism just makes the most sense.

However "IF" you had personally dealt with something such as a spirit, or a ghost, not just once, but on literally thousands of occasions, over an 8 year period, how would you convince yourself that "even if" their were some kind of super natural forces going on there, their was still just no possibility of this other "myth" known as God ?

I have actually been contemplating a few potential scientific answers to this question..... But then I find myself feeling like I used to, when I'd try to come up with some kind of BS to try to make myself believe that God was real Huh

Or to put it another way, I start to get kind of doubtful, when I have to make a really big stretch, to come up with an answer....

Your thoughts ?
Fish

PS, BTW, I've never seen a UFO, and I don't believe in Bigfoot Smile ....nor have I ever had such an experience before, or after the 8 year period I posted about.

Sometimes you just gotta have faith that there is a rational, natural explanation....and become comfortable with the idea that you may never know what that explanation is.

The natural world works in mysterious ways.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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26-07-2013, 01:33 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
(25-07-2013 11:48 PM)fish chris Wrote:  as I had said in my intro, I'm new to atheism. I'm 49 yo, and although I consider myself to be one of the most fact based, non-gullible guys around, I had still continued to play "make believe" when it came to religion.... right up until the last month or so.

Not really sure what caused me to finally wake up. But here I am.

Now, I do have this one little hang up, and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
From 83'-91' I lived in an old, beat up mobile home (kind of funny story, my step father bought it for me, so my mom would then let him kick me out of the house, and into the trailer Smile LOL Worked out great for everybody !)
Anyway for that entire 8 year period, we had... uhhh... call it whatever you like ? A ghost ? A spirit ? An invisible force ? It never showed itself, but it showed its doings, on at least a weekly basis. I'd say, on average 2-3 X's a week. The vast majority of the time, it only did small, innocuous things, but on much rarer occasions, it did a few Holy $#@& things too.

I will be glad to go into these things ^ with all the detail you wish, if I'm not just instantly laughed off the stage for bringing it up already.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So here's my question..... and if you have never had anything "seemingly super natural" happen to you, at any time in your life, lets just make this question a hypothetical one;

So you have decided that based on all of the evidence (or should I say, the lack of) of God, that atheism just makes the most sense.

However "IF" you had personally dealt with something such as a spirit, or a ghost, not just once, but on literally thousands of occasions, over an 8 year period, how would you convince yourself that "even if" their were some kind of super natural forces going on there, their was still just no possibility of this other "myth" known as God ?

I have actually been contemplating a few potential scientific answers to this question..... But then I find myself feeling like I used to, when I'd try to come up with some kind of BS to try to make myself believe that God was real Huh

Or to put it another way, I start to get kind of doubtful, when I have to make a really big stretch, to come up with an answer....

Your thoughts ?
Fish

PS, BTW, I've never seen a UFO, and I don't believe in Bigfoot Smile ....nor have I ever had such an experience before, or after the 8 year period I posted about.

Frankly, in my current state of thought and assuming those happenstances occurred, I'd see the work of Apophenia (aka patternicity to you Shermer fans) at work once again in my mind.
Apophenia is *"the experience of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data." attributing the apparent patterns to ghosts or other agents is a fairly normal response among humans.
Of course, that does not make the patterns real or the agents existent; it's just a fault in the programming of our brains which worked on a cause and effect method of keeping our species alive: grass suddenly rustles, something is in the grass.
Or at least, some consider that is how it worked, I don't know, I'm not a shrink.

The things which occurred most likely had other, unknown causes. Placing their cause on an unprovable concept like ghosts is inadvisable and probably fixed through liberal application of Occam's Razor to shave away the unnecessary elements.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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26-07-2013, 01:37 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
It's quite simple. Considering the fact that in the history of humanity, there has never ever been any proof that any supernatural being or force exists, the only thing left is "there must be a rational explanation to this". With so many "ghosts" and "haunted houses" around, don't you think someone would have been able to capture, measure, observe whatever supernatural happens?

It's simply that people are scared of what they don't understand. For example, if I didn't know we had mice in our home, I'd be scared to death by the noises they make. Also remember the story with the Devil Bird in The God Delusion. If you don't know it, look it up, it's very interesting.

I live in a place where at night, there's tons of weird noises but since I'm sure there's nothing supernatural, I just ignore them.

I am interested though in your experiences and if you tell us, maybe we could offer some logical explanations for them.

Many verses are like silver threads
tied on the chimes of the stars-
if you pull them,
a silver peal makes the horizon vibrate.
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26-07-2013, 06:27 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2013 06:30 AM by fish chris.)
RE: I really need some help with this.....
First off, much thanks for your responses, and most especially, for not laughing at me Smile

So let me go into a little more detail, of the kinds of stuff I'm talking about.
By far the most common occurrence we had, was that we would be home, doing whatever... watching TV, messing with my aquariums, making food in the kitchen, then, would walk 15 ft into the living room area (this was only a 8ft wide, 40ft trailer) sit down, glance back in the kitchen, and EVERY drawer + EVERY cabinet door would be wide open. Well obviously I hadn't walked around the kitchen and purposely left every single drawer and door wide open.... but I'd get up, take a few seconds to close everything, then go sit back down. Now, you could sit there all freaking day, watching closely, and nothing would budge. I'd even look away for a bit, then glance back trying to "catch something" happening, in the act. But everything would remain untouched. It wasn't until you really quit paying attention to it... getting into your dinner, or a TV program, or something really had your attention for a bit, and even then, only about 30% of the time, that you would glance back in the kitchen, and Bam ! EVERYTHING would be wide open again. This would often happen once or twice, rarely 3X's, in a day. I think maybe twice for one of us (me and either one of my two ex's who lived in that trailer with me) and once or twice for the other, in separate events.
We got to the point where we would get more aggravated, than freaked out. Like where we would speak out loud to it... Like "Come on man... quit screwing off".... or "I hope your having fun". Sometimes, we'd even just say screw it, and leave everything wide open.

We also had a really old TV... nothing digital about it, which the volume would just decide to crank WAY up at random X's. My buddy who was into electronics, said that that old school volume control could not just turn itself up, without the knob actually spinning.... so I painted the little ridge on the one side of it with finger nail polish, to see it easier from a distance. Of course, it never budged while I was watching it... but if I got into my aquarium work, or dinner or something, it would suddenly just start cranking up, and sure enough, the knob had actually been turned. Might do it 2 or 3 X's in a day... then not again for a month.

And then their were the other small, but random occurences.... and, the couple Holy $#!+ occurrences (which I almost have enough confidence to tell you guys about....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But anyway, these ^ are the kinds of things that I have a hard time considering, as I tell myself that their is NO scientific evidence for support of a supreme power, which cannot be seen or felt.

IF their is a scientific answer for everything, then the only kinds of far fetched things I can come up with, is that some other being, human, or otherwise {but no more super natural than we are} from another time and place, had found a way, through some sort of space and / or time warp, to be able to do these things, simply to mess with us... or should I say, just for fun and games. I mean if they were far superior to us, maybe it was like, "Ha Smile lets mess with the clueless cave man" ... kind of thing ?
I mean, unless someone can come up with something which sounds more likely. Heck, you see how crazy my possible explanation is, so I'd definitely consider anything.

I know this ^ sounds kind of ridiculous.... But we see things every day, that seem completely normal, which only 100 years ago, would have seemed completely ridiculous or impossible too....

Hmmm....

On the other hand, the Bible ? Give me a break.

Peace,
Fish
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26-07-2013, 06:37 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
Here's my take on this Fish....I don't think that the most plausible explanation is crazy. I think you just havent figured out the most plausabe explanation yet.

That being said, atheism is a lack of belief in god. Nothing says you can't believe in ghosts! Wink

Just visiting.

-SR
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26-07-2013, 06:51 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
Physics, man, physics. It dispelled all fears about ghosts for me. I'm on my mobile but I'll add a link or two later.

[Image: 3d366d5c-72a0-4228-b835-f404c2970188_zps...1381867723]
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26-07-2013, 07:32 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
One little mouse = 10 ghosts
One raccoon = don't even get me started
Sunlight can make metal expand and then when it cools contract and this can cause all kinds of sounds and sometimes wiring issues.
Mice also love to chew on wiring.
Mold, fungus, air quality, humidity can cause droplets of ooze.
Any kind of gas leak from the stove or a dead mouse can cause unexplained smells

There are so many things that can happen naturally.

If you add in sleep walking, tossing and turning in bed, potentially knocking something over or waking up with unexplained bruises, you can see where this is going.

For me, my number one unexplained thing in life is when people know something about my life that they shouldn't or when they absolutely should know something and they don't.

I'll give an example of the last one.
I have a goatee that I have sported continuously for the past 28 yrs .
About this length, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer.
[Image: 620_16_o.jpg]

A friend of mine dated his second wife for a year before they were married and the marriage lasted 2 years.
During this time, we've had dinners together, parties, camping trips, helping them move into their house, christmas, birthdays of all our friends, bbq get togethers.
She should know that I have a goatee after nearly 3 years of knowing me, let alone being friends on facebook with my picture there on comments.

At one new years eve party, we were looking at pictures from our last camping trip and with me sitting right there, she looks at a camping picture of me and says with all seriousness.
"Oh you have a goatee in this picture, when did you get that ? "
There was no laughing, no joke. Dead serious.

I replied "I've had this goatee for as long as I've known you"
Her reply "Oh, I guess I just never noticed"

Seeing a picture of me with a goatee was a new event for her so she commented on it. None of my friends had any kind of explanation.
We simply chalk it up to one of those things in life that we can't explain.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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26-07-2013, 07:42 AM
RE: I really need some help with this.....
... You *sure* you can't rule out someone dicking with you ? Even someone you wouldn't suspect of doing so is probably a better bet than hypothetical invisible beings.

The open drawers thing... you say it's a trailer ? Couldn't you have just parked it on a slope ? And old electronics can go wonky for any number of reasons.

I mean... come on Wink This ghostly stuff is pretty interesting but if I was a ghost I highly doubt that my number one mission in life would be to open drawers and turn up the volume on the radio/tv when nobody was watching.
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