I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
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15-08-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(15-08-2013 05:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-08-2013 12:57 PM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  cbenham thanks hope it is okay that I quote all of your text.

"operational definition" sounds like what I am looking for.
I borrowed two such from Anthropology of religion
not because I am a fan of them which I am not but because
it is seen as science and quoted on wikipedia so it has some merit to it.

I would prefer some definition from social psychology or experimental psychology. something reliable.

what I like most in your response is this part:


If one read what you write there then it is as clear as sky.
clear descriptions much better than labels forced upon us
by locked definitions. Descriptions can be changed by the user
but a definition is locked by the usage of the active atheists.

So much appreciated that you shared your view.

The definition:
"I am a person who does not believe in god (an atheist) and I think that the gods that have been discussed are the products of social psychology and anthropology, created by people."
probably applies to most of the atheists here.

So I still don't understand your problem with the word 'atheist'.

cbenham described it in a way that should be accessible to you.
Maybe you have to try harder or talk to some friend that can explain to you? It is not exactly Rock Science going to the Moon is it? Smile
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15-08-2013, 10:57 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(15-08-2013 05:12 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Why don't you try to describe what bothers you with the word atheism (what you infer from it, the connotations and details) instead of defining only your special set of beliefs... Just so we can differentiate one from the other

that is what my thread is about. or else I would not have written it.

You only have to use some empathy and put yourself in my shoes
and you can find better words for it than what I could produce.

cbenham gave a good explanation too.
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15-08-2013, 10:59 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
Girly I agree that computer science is much harder than atheist definition.
But then you should be able to get what I wrote in this thread.
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15-08-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(15-08-2013 10:57 PM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  
(15-08-2013 05:12 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Why don't you try to describe what bothers you with the word atheism (what you infer from it, the connotations and details) instead of defining only your special set of beliefs... Just so we can differentiate one from the other

that is what my thread is about. or else I would not have written it.

You only have to use some empathy and put yourself in my shoes
and you can find better words for it than what I could produce.

cbenham gave a good explanation too.

I try, but I just can't see why do you struggle so much with this. You talked about philosophy and stuff like that, but that's little if anything to do with how you define your beliefs.

Plus, what cbenham said it's pretty much what every atheist believe (with some exceptions of course). I understand that you don't want to be labelled, but you're like a guy who likes other guys wanting not to be called gay.
I'm not trying to force you into anything, I'm just stating my point of view and trying to express my confusion about the issue.
If I were to take a guess, I'd say you're exaggerating or overreacting to something, but I don't want to make that guess... That's why I ask, what troubles you? how does being labelled as an atheist makes you feel?. Does atheist have some extra meaning for you? some connotation maybe?
Or is it that you feel that the word atheist isn't good enough to describe you? and if so, why the struggle? why the need to go so deep into philosophy to just give a description of your beliefs?

btw, where're you from? maybe that can give us a clue about some stuff too

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15-08-2013, 11:53 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
If you don't want to be an atheist, then fine.


What do you want to be remembered for being?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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16-08-2013, 02:14 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(15-08-2013 11:10 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(15-08-2013 10:57 PM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  that is what my thread is about. or else I would not have written it.

You only have to use some empathy and put yourself in my shoes
and you can find better words for it than what I could produce.

cbenham gave a good explanation too.

I try, but I just can't see why do you struggle so much with this. You talked about philosophy and stuff like that, but that's little if anything to do with how you define your beliefs.

Plus, what cbenham said it's pretty much what every atheist believe (with some exceptions of course). I understand that you don't want to be labelled, but you're like a guy who likes other guys wanting not to be called gay.
I'm not trying to force you into anything, I'm just stating my point of view and trying to express my confusion about the issue.
If I were to take a guess, I'd say you're exaggerating or overreacting to something, but I don't want to make that guess... That's why I ask, what troubles you? how does being labelled as an atheist makes you feel?. Does atheist have some extra meaning for you? some connotation maybe?
Or is it that you feel that the word atheist isn't good enough to describe you? and if so, why the struggle? why the need to go so deep into philosophy to just give a description of your beliefs?

btw, where're you from? maybe that can give us a clue about some stuff too

It is rather the other way around. I don't go deep into philosophy at all
I am very skeptical to philosophy so i try to describe my atheism
using Anthropology and Social psychology instead.

Like cbenham suggested I am a descriptive atheist and not a definition atheist.

1. Definition atheists accept the definition that philosophers has set up for atheists. Strong atheist, weak atheist, agnostic atheist.

2. Descriptive atheists want to describe how they relate to theism and atheist with words and not by ready made definitions.

3. So I am an Anthropolgoically and social psychology leaning atheist that see all gods as man made. I don't trust that philosophy is the best way to handle religions and gods.

As easy as that.
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16-08-2013, 07:14 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(16-08-2013 02:14 AM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  
(15-08-2013 11:10 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I try, but I just can't see why do you struggle so much with this. You talked about philosophy and stuff like that, but that's little if anything to do with how you define your beliefs.

Plus, what cbenham said it's pretty much what every atheist believe (with some exceptions of course). I understand that you don't want to be labelled, but you're like a guy who likes other guys wanting not to be called gay.
I'm not trying to force you into anything, I'm just stating my point of view and trying to express my confusion about the issue.
If I were to take a guess, I'd say you're exaggerating or overreacting to something, but I don't want to make that guess... That's why I ask, what troubles you? how does being labelled as an atheist makes you feel?. Does atheist have some extra meaning for you? some connotation maybe?
Or is it that you feel that the word atheist isn't good enough to describe you? and if so, why the struggle? why the need to go so deep into philosophy to just give a description of your beliefs?

btw, where're you from? maybe that can give us a clue about some stuff too

It is rather the other way around. I don't go deep into philosophy at all
I am very skeptical to philosophy so i try to describe my atheism
using Anthropology and Social psychology instead.

Like cbenham suggested I am a descriptive atheist and not a definition atheist.

1. Definition atheists accept the definition that philosophers has set up for atheists. Strong atheist, weak atheist, agnostic atheist.

2. Descriptive atheists want to describe how they relate to theism and atheist with words and not by ready made definitions.

3. So I am an Anthropolgoically and social psychology leaning atheist that see all gods as man made. I don't trust that philosophy is the best way to handle religions and gods.

As easy as that.

It seems to me that you have made up these definitions and they cause some sort of dissonance for you.

You are over-thinking and over-complicating something that is really quite simple.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-08-2013, 07:20 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(16-08-2013 02:14 AM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  Like cbenham suggested I am a descriptive atheist and not a definition atheist.

As easy as that.

Yabut, that still makes you an atheist, by your own description. Does it not?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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16-08-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(16-08-2013 02:14 AM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  
(15-08-2013 11:10 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I try, but I just can't see why do you struggle so much with this. You talked about philosophy and stuff like that, but that's little if anything to do with how you define your beliefs.

Plus, what cbenham said it's pretty much what every atheist believe (with some exceptions of course). I understand that you don't want to be labelled, but you're like a guy who likes other guys wanting not to be called gay.
I'm not trying to force you into anything, I'm just stating my point of view and trying to express my confusion about the issue.
If I were to take a guess, I'd say you're exaggerating or overreacting to something, but I don't want to make that guess... That's why I ask, what troubles you? how does being labelled as an atheist makes you feel?. Does atheist have some extra meaning for you? some connotation maybe?
Or is it that you feel that the word atheist isn't good enough to describe you? and if so, why the struggle? why the need to go so deep into philosophy to just give a description of your beliefs?

btw, where're you from? maybe that can give us a clue about some stuff too

It is rather the other way around. I don't go deep into philosophy at all
I am very skeptical to philosophy so i try to describe my atheism
using Anthropology and Social psychology instead.

Like cbenham suggested I am a descriptive atheist and not a definition atheist.

1. Definition atheists accept the definition that philosophers has set up for atheists. Strong atheist, weak atheist, agnostic atheist.

2. Descriptive atheists want to describe how they relate to theism and atheist with words and not by ready made definitions.

3. So I am an Anthropolgoically and social psychology leaning atheist that see all gods as man made. I don't trust that philosophy is the best way to handle religions and gods.

As easy as that.

Oh, I see, you problem is not with atheism or its definition, you take issue with philosophy as a means to approach the topic of gods.

But as the question about the existence of god is a metaphysical question, it is intrinsically philosophical, anthropology or sociology give an answer, but it's not complete without the reasoning of philosophy. In the same sense, philosophy by itself is useless if not informed by the knowledge of more "down to earth" disciplines.

If you only use one of the things, either one, you'll be trying to walk with one leg...

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16-08-2013, 10:15 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
nach I disagree but will not argue about it now.
my view is in this thread and others on this forum.

I've looked at philosophy since 1980 and see no progress
from them on explaining religion.

Clifford Geertz does explain in his definition how the religious communities
does make their gods. I find the words he use very abstract but they are not
beyond reach so if you disagree with him you should be able to explain where he goes wrong.

He wrote that definition 1966 and it has stood the test of time. Unchallenged still AFAIK.

I am very disappointed he used such abstract words because I barely get it
and can not retell it with my own words but he do explain how gods are made in that text.

According to Geertz, religion is "
(1) a system of symbols which acts to
(2) establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by
(3) formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and
(4) clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that
(5) the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic" (Geertz 1966).

As i get it (4) and (5) explain how the believers make god real to them.

formally you are right that they express their faith in an external "real" god
but that is explained why and how they have to do it that way in Geertz text.

It is logic that make that necessary or else they would not believe in God.

One have to really get what he says and then one realize that the ontology philosophy
is missing the point entirely. A made up god is a made up god even if it point to a supposed
real god outside of that culture.

They believer have no such knowledge and only wild guess such god to exist.
by playing along with the construct the philosophers give the believers credit
instead of pointing out that it is a social construct and not real knowledge about a real god.
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