I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
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09-08-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
earmuffs "It's that fucking simply, I don't see how people cannot grasp this concept. "

you need to have imagination and empathy and maybe a bit sympathy Smile

Then you would see it from my perspective while retaining your view
and then knowing both perspectives you could translate between them?

if it was easy then I would have understood it. I have tried since 1983
when I became aware of that I maybe is not an atheist but an anti-theist.
Formally the same thing but in behavior it is a huge difference.

As an anti-theist you maybe really hate the believers while atheists
comes in many varieties even apatheistic that don't care about it at all .

So it may look easy from your perspective
but you maybe don't have my vulnerability
of being dependence of approval from others.
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09-08-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 10:13 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 09:53 AM)Dom Wrote:  This statement is bugging me now. It's part of a song, isn't it? But what song? Huh

Ha! I actually didn't know either (I did pull the phrase from the song).

Here ya go, we both learned something!



Yep, that's it! Some ooold memories there

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-08-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 10:43 AM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  you need to have imagination and empathy and maybe a bit sympathy Smile

Earmuffs? Laughat

You're new, so let's get that outta the way... no. Thumbsup

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09-08-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 07:40 AM)Freethinker2 Wrote:  Thanks to all that shared your views. so I should not care about them?
But they told me their views as the accurate views. if other atheists
did not agree too bad for the other atheists because these knew their logic.

I think it would be great if atheism was as easy as Rocket science. Smile
I don't trust that philosophy is easy. George Smith wrote his book 1974
Atheism the Case against God. Already 1979 Michael Martin complained
about his lack of logic so it is not as easy as Rocket Science.

But strident atheists has decided that it is easy because they say so.
I am not intelligent enough to get it.

But I feel rather confident that I get what Anthropology of Religion
and Social Psychology say about religious communities and their gods.

that is way easier than Rocket science and philosophy too.

But the strident atheists assured me that science is totally irrelevant.
to me science means the most trustful method to get knowledge.

If science tells me that humans create their religions and imagine their gods
then to me that is more likely than that philosophy knows anything about it.


SPending your time learning to think for yourself would be a good start for you here.

It is not hard to draw conclusions that are pretty accurate about religious communities without needed deep philosophy or psychology. Madness is easy to spot if you use simple logical rational behavior. Do this first, think for yourself and constantly question that which is around you. If you do this you will find the answers you need if that is indeed why you are here.
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09-08-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
To the OP

It looks like you're having some major semantic struggle there. And don't take me wrong, people often dismiss semantic discussions as useless, but words can have serious effects on people and actions, semantics can be of importance.

Atheism is a very broad term, it includes people of many different opinions and beliefs. The only generally shared definition is that atheists don't believe in the objective existence of any deity. In those terms, you could use the label.
But you require more, in your particular case, your beliefs (or disbelief) have some particular connotations and contextualizations that aren't implied in that definition.
You said you don't believe in an objective existence of gods, objective meaning external, real, and differentiable of people's minds existence. But you do believe in a SUBJECTIVE existence, as you said, gods exists as social constructs, as ideas formed by a social group, and thus, not objectively existent, but existent as a symbol or group of symbols and meaning in people's minds.

I'd say that every atheist believe that, there's no atheist that can say that gods aren't real ideas, otherwise we'd be saying that religious people are involved in some sort of massive conspiracy to mess with our heads, and that would be silly (or is it Confused )

Anyway, atheism is a broad term that includes a lot of people, like saying "women" the term can be used even to define people who don't want to be women, like woman-to-man transgender, and while we call them men (because it's their identity), in some sense they can be called woman (because that's how we define the bodies they were born with).

So don't be bothered by being labelled with a broad term, be aware of its meaning and why you're part of that, but also be aware of your particularities and specific beliefs, that what make your beliefs your (and in your case I wouldn't say you "believe" in people making god as a soical thing, I'd say you "know" so)

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09-08-2013, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 03:13 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 02:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  To the OP

It looks like you're having some major semantic struggle there. And don't take me wrong, people often dismiss semantic discussions as useless, but words can have serious effects on people and actions, semantics can be of importance.

Atheism is a very broad term, it includes people of many different opinions and beliefs. The only generally shared definition is that atheists don't believe in the objective existence of any deity. In those terms, you could use the label.
But you require more, in your particular case, your beliefs (or disbelief) have some particular connotations and contextualizations that aren't implied in that definition.
You said you don't believe in an objective existence of gods, objective meaning external, real, and differentiable of people's minds existence. But you do believe in a SUBJECTIVE existence, as you said, gods exists as social constructs, as ideas formed by a social group, and thus, not objectively existent, but existent as a symbol or group of symbols and meaning in people's minds.

I'd say that every atheist believe that, there's no atheist that can say that gods aren't real ideas, otherwise we'd be saying that religious people are involved in some sort of massive conspiracy to mess with our heads, and that would be silly (or is it Confused )

Anyway, atheism is a broad term that includes a lot of people, like saying "women" the term can be used even to define people who don't want to be women, like woman-to-man transgender, and while we call them men (because it's their identity), in some sense they can be called woman (because that's how we define the bodies they were born with).

So don't be bothered by being labelled with a broad term, be aware of its meaning and why you're part of that, but also be aware of your particularities and specific beliefs, that what make your beliefs your (and in your case I wouldn't say you "believe" in people making god as a soical thing, I'd say you "know" so)

Sorry to disagree, but we're now talking semantics.

Atheism is not a "broad" term. It's a very specific term, relating to a very specific topic. Because it's related to a very specific topic with a very broad potential for interpretation (god) it can get conflated into a lot of different meanings. The word itself means one thing and one thing only, everything else is perhaps informed by, but not defined by atheism.

edit: for clarity.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-08-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 02:53 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 02:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  To the OP

It looks like you're having some major semantic struggle there. And don't take me wrong, people often dismiss semantic discussions as useless, but words can have serious effects on people and actions, semantics can be of importance.

Atheism is a very broad term, it includes people of many different opinions and beliefs. The only generally shared definition is that atheists don't believe in the objective existence of any deity. In those terms, you could use the label.
But you require more, in your particular case, your beliefs (or disbelief) have some particular connotations and contextualizations that aren't implied in that definition.
You said you don't believe in an objective existence of gods, objective meaning external, real, and differentiable of people's minds existence. But you do believe in a SUBJECTIVE existence, as you said, gods exists as social constructs, as ideas formed by a social group, and thus, not objectively existent, but existent as a symbol or group of symbols and meaning in people's minds.

I'd say that every atheist believe that, there's no atheist that can say that gods aren't real ideas, otherwise we'd be saying that religious people are involved in some sort of massive conspiracy to mess with our heads, and that would be silly (or is it Confused )

Anyway, atheism is a broad term that includes a lot of people, like saying "women" the term can be used even to define people who don't want to be women, like woman-to-man transgender, and while we call them men (because it's their identity), in some sense they can be called woman (because that's how we define the bodies they were born with).

So don't be bothered by being labelled with a broad term, be aware of its meaning and why you're part of that, but also be aware of your particularities and specific beliefs, that what make your beliefs your (and in your case I wouldn't say you "believe" in people making god as a soical thing, I'd say you "know" so)

Sorry to disagree, but we're now talking semantics.

Atheism is not a "broad" term. It's a very specific term, relating to a very specific topic. Because it's related to a very broad topic (god) it can get conflated into a lot of different meanings. The word itself means one thing and one thing only, everything else is perhaps informed by, but not defined by atheism.

I meant broad in the sense of how many people it can be applied to, not in the sense of how many meanings it has.

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09-08-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 03:17 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 02:53 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Sorry to disagree, but we're now talking semantics.

Atheism is not a "broad" term. It's a very specific term, relating to a very specific topic. Because it's related to a very broad topic (god) it can get conflated into a lot of different meanings. The word itself means one thing and one thing only, everything else is perhaps informed by, but not defined by atheism.

I meant broad in the sense of how many people it can be applied to, not in the sense of how many meanings it has.

Semantics. Rolleyes

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-08-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 03:26 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 03:17 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I meant broad in the sense of how many people it can be applied to, not in the sense of how many meanings it has.

Semantics. Rolleyes

see, they're important Drinking Beverage

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09-08-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: I sincerely need your kind help. Struggled one year daily with Philosophy
(09-08-2013 03:26 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-08-2013 03:26 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Semantics. Rolleyes

see, they're important Drinking Beverage

Yes (see the edit to above post) they are. As accuracy in semantics can also be. Big Grin

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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